2007-2008 Reno SCCA Silly Season thread

[Kevin M]

Every year there are plenty of changes in cars, equipment, classing, co-driving etc., as well as new rules proposals that deserve discussion. This year's hot topic for the winter seems to be requiring a bumping order for single-entry classes. There will probably also be plenty fo arguing and bench-racing over the new PAX factors, which in turn will lead to more people changing classes, cars, or just complaining louder.

Personally, I'm planning on running in FSP next year in the little red wagon, assuming I have it running by April! I had been strongly considering a hit off the Hoosier pipe, but now I might have a codriver so I'm going to end up on Bridgestones. At any rate, I am looking forward to the new season even more than I was last winter.

[sperry]

Silly season indeed.

Upcoming arguments:

Bumping order... use the SCCA national order? use our own regional rules? use PAX factors to equalize competition? don't use it at all?

PAX... use the "national" factors? use our own factors? use Jim Gandy's high-altitude conversion stuff? don't use it at all?

Street Tire... keep using it for inter-class PAX competition? drop street tire PAX all together? go back to a street tire class? require street tire on Stock classes in the region? street tire is ruining autocross?

Novice... keep a year-long novice program? try to get novices into a points class ASAP? have participation points for novices?

[Kevin M]

Bumping order... I say leave it alone, or at most just tell everyone running unopposed that if they want more competition they can bump themselves to the next class. But I really don't like the idea of pushing people out of their correct class just so someone else can feel like there's more "competition" in the region- especially since it's not really fair competition.

PAX- it's not perfect, never will be, and we don't have the resources to substantially improve it. I vote for adopting national PAX again, accepting that it will give some class(es) a slight advantage, and march on.

Street Tire modifier- how many times do we need to see the top 5 or 10 PAX spots go to race tires at Stead before people admit that the race tires actually have an advantage over the length of the season?

Novice- I plan to suggest that we adopt a rule that you only get one full season in Novice. If you ran 9 of 17 events this season, you are ineligible for it next season, but you can still run the entire schedule of your rookie year if you wish.

[Nick Koan]

The race tire bug has bit me.

I think I'm going to try to get some Hoosiers or Kuhmos before the start of next season.

[sperry]

Kevin, Novice already has that rule. What many of the long term members are pushing for is to give a Novice say 4 events before they must move to a points class. I think they feel like the novice program is reducing the competition in the points classes because we have all these people essentially out there running no-points for a whole season.

My counter to that is:

1) Novices wouldn't be much for adding real competition in the points classes until late in the season simply 'cause they're novices after all

2) Just having a warm body in a points class doesn't really add "competition" if they're going to be beat by 10 seconds ever event

3) Being whooped on every event 'cause you're new is discouraging to new members

4) Having a fun-based rather than competition based program for the 1st year tends to keep novices coming back

5) Drivers see completing a full season as a novice as a "rite of passage" into autocross. People that drove together as novices in the same season get a sort of comradeship with each other that continues on into subsequent seasons. (At least that's part of the goal of the current program IMO)

6) And of course all the original reasons that prompted Dean to come up with the idea 2 years ago: running w/o classes helps lower the pressure for new drivers, having the novices allows us to balance the run groups (granted the process needs to be improved, perhaps with online registration?), a novice program allows new drivers to get instruction more easily, etc.

The ultimate goal of the Novice program is not just to get new members hooked on autocross by making it easier to run, but also to make them into faster and better drivers. I think forcing people into points classes will not only discourage them from coming out at all, but will slow their development time into top-shelf drivers. What we really want from the program is not only drivers that are going to come back season after season, but drivers that will come back and raise the bar and help Reno get to a Nationally competitive region.

So, with regards to the Novice program, I'd really like to get some feedback on the program from those that have run as novices under the program this year and last. Does it really help in the way we were hoping? Would you rather get into competition sooner (not that the novice program precludes you from going to a points class)? Does a season of novice class make you a competitive driver when you move to a points class?

Personally, I lucked out my first season (2003). I ran in STX with a bunch of other n00bs, so in a way we had our own Novice season. My second season, Dean joined STX and cleaned our clocks. If I had run STX against Dean my 1st season, I certainly wouldn't have had so much fun if I were perpetually running for second, 3 and 4 seconds behind Dean, and I may have just given up on it thinking I simply wasn't very good. Being successful and having similarly experienced drivers in my 1st season made all the difference in making me come back for more, which in turn is the primary reason I got better and better at autocross.

[Kevin M]

Kevin, Novice already has that rule. What many of the long term members are pushing for is to give a Novice say 4 events before they must move to a points class. I think they feel like the novice program is reducing the competition in the points classes because we have all these people essentially out there running no-points for a whole season.

I agree completely. My feelings about the Novice program is that it ain't broke, so people should stop trying to fix it. The only improvement I see is creating a real Novice Chief position for the season, and giving that person (yes, I'm looking at you Dean) responsibility for guiding the n00bs to being knowledgeable autocrossers, in terms of skills, awareness of how the events work, limited advice on modding and classing, etc. In other words, formalize the education that most of us here got because we have been affiliated with SECCS and provide it for people who found their own way to an event. There's an awful lot to learn to be a part of an event that runs smoothly and still have fun, and the Novice program needs to emphasise the things you need to know before you try to become competitive. Deciding to make the effort to be fast and go for wins is something each driver should do on his or her own IMO. I feel like putting such a small cap on Novice events is kind of like saying "well, you can only come out because it's fun 4 times, after that you better be here to win." We're basically telling everyone who doesn't have the intention of being a National level driver that they don't belong here, and that's the exact opposite of what brought me to Reno events in the first place.

[MPREZIV]

I say don't F with the Novice class, as it is. You asked for personal opinions, and I can tell you that being able to spend an entire season in N allowed me to come whatever part of the day I wanted, and not worry about points/classes/schedules/shit. Come, run, have fun, and don't worry about all that crap while you're still likely in the "is this a sport I want to get serious about" phase.

After running a full season of "no worries" I can say I DEFINITELY feel that I was WAY more ready to actually compete in class this year, confidence wise, and skill wise.

You're completely right in that a bunch of newbies shoved into classes will not really mean "competition" so much as just numbers.

[cody]

I think Scott and Kevin make really good points. I liked the Novice program. I especially liked the freedom to choose when to join a "real" class. The Novice Chief idea sounds awesome.

[Nick Koan]

The Novice Chief idea sounds awesome.

Yeah, and I think you'd do well at it too.

[zpeed]

I just come out and play 2-3 times a year. So should I run no point or novice. I don't care about point or class just want to run that all.

[Kevin M]

I just come out and play 2-3 times a year. So should I run no point or novice. I don't care about point or class just want to run that all.

Well, if you basically know what you're doing and you just want the seat time, RNP is fine. The function of the Novice class (as most of us see it) is to help people who are new, want some instruction, or just don't really have anyone to ask questions. Either way you can run when you want.

[JonnydaJibba]

I can't add much, but as a person who tries to race as much as possible but can't always make it, requiring me to be in a class (SM) would be pointless in my case. Of course it wouldn't be such a big deal if I could find a stock hood within reasonable distance. But I've been looking pretty much since I bought my car and I have yet to find one close. I guess it's a mostly moot point though because it's such a specific instance.

[cody]

Yeah, and I think you'd do well at it too.

Maybe in a year or two, but I'm still a n00b.

[Kevin M]

Maybe in a year or two, but I'm still a n00b.

Just ask yourself what Dean would do, and you'll be fine. :cool:

[tysonK]

sell the evo.

I'mgoonabuyacamaro.

[MikeK]

The timing chief idea sounds awesomeYeah, and I think you'd do well at it too.

I agree with Nick!

[Kevin M]

I agree with Nick!

Me too!

[cody]

Me too!

Hey Asshole, it was your idea. :lol:

[Kevin M]

Hey Asshole, it was your idea. :lol:

You missed a fix. :lol:

[cody]

Apparently I'm still missing it.

[k-dogg39]

I say don't F with the Novice class, as it is. You asked for personal opinions, and I can tell you that being able to spend an entire season in N allowed me to come whatever part of the day I wanted, and not worry about points/classes/schedules/shit. Come, run, have fun, and don't worry about all that crap while you're still likely in the "is this a sport I want to get serious about" phase.

After running a full season of "no worries" I can say I DEFINITELY feel that I was WAY more ready to actually compete in class this year, confidence wise, and skill wise.

You're completely right in that a bunch of newbies shoved into classes will not really mean "competition" so much as just numbers.

I agree with Cory. Having run in Novice the entire time in my first year definitely helped me out. Having the choice of running in the morning or afternoon was key for me and made it possible to come to most of the events. Also nice to get pointers and advice from everyone out there, with ride alongs and what not. It would have been a bit frustrating jumping right into SM and getting smacked around (something to look forward to next year:D )

[dknv]

Novice Class:
I also support letting drivers run as novices in their first season if they choose. I'm not sure about a year-end novice 'champion' award though, as we have it today (participation for the most part, along with quick studies who are driving fast cars). I think there would be good stimulation to recognize when novices are getting better, but don't have any concrete ideas towards that end right now. Rachel was glad she ran as a novice this year (even though some parts of her driving profile doesn't fit a new person, i.e. she's already driving a autox-classed & prepped car). She said that it allowed her to get exposed to it before having to compete with more experienced people. Also, she got extra help from others (Mark, Dean, John and Patty, etc.) to ride with her, and give her feedback, which I'd like to see more novices take advantage of.

[dknv]

...Help Reno get to be a nationally competitive region:
I don't really think our membership wants that. If we did, we would support (vote for) hosting a divisional event; we would run national classes (without the street tire pax); we would support and encourage attendence at other national events; we would limit our 'best scored run' to the first three; etc etc etc. I think the Pro Class idea was a good one towards growing more nationally competitive drivers, but why were there only 3 or 4 participants in it all year? (I would have run in Pro myself, except for wanting to coach Rachel this year. Maybe there are other 'excuses' out there as well.)

In my opinion, this region wants to autox at the least amount of cost. As one example, Don Smith wrote the street tire newsletter article which I can certainly appreciate - street tires are alot less expensive than race tires. However, for those who want to compete in class under national-level rules, adding in other variables such as street tire pax or high altitude pax, passengering and seeing the course more than some of your competitors, and other convenience rules, does not encourage national competitiveness.

[Double Phister]

Being a super n00b that has never even been to an event I would say that it is great that there is a place that let's other n00bs get their feet wet with as little stress as possible.

Part of the reason that I don't compete is that I don't know the way things work or the etiquette. The other reason is that I've mod'ed my car into a non-competetive class.


Is there some sort of online 'this is what to expect' resource? a video version would be better due my laziness.


Cliffs-Noob class sounds like a good idea.

[MPREZIV]

The other reason is that I've mod'ed my car into a non-competetive class.


You're telling me! Although, as has been said before here, NONE of the cars in our region are really SM competitive, from a "national level" standpoint. My car is WAY behind, power wise, the norm for the SM cars in our area, but I can tell you for sure, it's still TONS of fun!

Even being "out-classed" it's well worth at least going out and seeing what it's all about, and that's exactly what the Novice class is for!

[Joeyy]

Mr. Token, where was your custom trunk decor last weekend?:(

[bxracer69]

2nd tier SM is just as competitive as 1st tier

[Dean]

OK, ready for my $.02.

Novice is not broken and does not need to be fixed. We have 2 specific Timing & Scoring related issues with Novice that need to be addressed without creating new ones for registration.

1. Novices change numbers every event which is a nightmare for T&S.
2. Entering names for novices is a nightmare related to issue 1 as well as all the new folks

I think the solution to #1 is to make a bunch of magnetic 1-9s, Rs and Ns and rent or sell them cheap. I think this would fix this issue as even novices have favorite numbers. I think we should do other letters as well and make all the a-holes who have driven all season with crappy or non-existent numbers or classes buy them. This may make a bit more work for Registration up front, but after they get their numbers I think it would actually reduce it since the Ns would register just as other drivers do. No paper to hand out, etc.

For #2, we have discussed pre-adding a bunch of novice numbers to our timing software so they work just don't have names. Announcer could read names off of sheet if time runs out to get them typed in.

On the Novice chief...

It is a great idea, but practicality rears it's head. Myself or one of the 20 or so other people who keep the events running isn't always available to do it.

We need more people willing to do more than just drive and shag cones!!!

We need more trained and qualified T&S people, Bus setup and tear down people, Registration people, Safety Stewards, event chairs, announcers, course setup, tear down folks, etc... before we can staff the Novice chief position. Right now, the same 20 or so people do all those jobs across 4 run groups as well as before and after the run groups.

I tried to do guided course walks and such as time permitted, but if you look at the past few events, I have worked 2-3 run groups in each and for the last two, that was in addition to being the event chair.

So if you think we need a Novice chief, you better already be one of those 20 or so people busting their ass, or better become one of them.

Anyone capable of posting in this forum is likely capable of doing bus setup and tear down as well as T&S jobs with a little training.

Anybody can get out there early or stay and help tear down the course, and the more the merrier!!! (Thanks again to everyone who helped us setup as well as set record times for tear down both days of the last weekend.)


I'll comment on Bumping order, PAX and street tires later.

[MattR]

Good points there Dean. I agree after hearing everyone's input, we should leave the novice program as-is, and work on the T&S issues to support it.

We need more help in all areas of the Reno SCCA. If you care, you should get involved.

[MPREZIV]

Mr. Token, where was your custom trunk decor last weekend?:(

It was too cold for him to hang on Saturday, but he was there Sunday!

2nd tier SM is just as competitive as 1st tier

Very true! The couple times you Jason and I were all at the same event, we were all withing tenths or even hundreths of one another!

[Joeyy]

Ladies and gents, watch for ScottyS rolling on the Lightstars for the 08 autoX season. :)

[Joeyy]

The Reno SCCA meeting tonight was not very heated. I thought I'd see a little more action. No real street tire talk until Matt stoked the fire. But still not as much as I'd thought would come up.

The idea of multiple PAX champs is not for me. There should be one top dog on top of the hill at the end of it all, in my opinion.

The k work was only heard once and sounded more like joking than anything.

Sounds like the only seat to be contested between two folks a this point is between Randy and Dean. I'm voting for Dean. We may have to have a big Subaru turn out to push Dean over the top. Any chance to beat down a Corvette and I'm in.

[Joeyy]

Note, Speed is playing races from Nationals tonight. Set the DVRs. I think GT Lites are going to be on tonight.:)

[MattR]

Yes, oddly, it looks as if Dean and Randy Jones are going for the same seat on the board... SCCA Members, your vote matters this year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MikeK]

I'm voting for Randy since street tyres aren't legal in FP

[Nick Koan]

Yeah, I already have my race tires for next year. I'm voting for Randy!

[Joeyy]

Yeah, I already have my race tires for next year. I'm voting for Randy!

Really? Slicks or something with tread?

[Nick Koan]

Really? Slicks or something with tread?

Kart slicks.

[MattR]

2008 PAX Factors are out. Looks like everything got harder.

http://scca-chicago.com/solo/indexes/rtp2008.html

Is anyone running DS???? Looks like a good chance to play spoiler.

[Kevin M]

Ouch... FSP got HAMMERED. :(

[MikeK]

Here is the % change, from highest to lowest.

GS 1.4944
STS2 1.48883
STX 1.48515
FS 1.48331
STS 1.36646
CSP 1.30178
FSP 1.21507
STU 1.09622
CS 1.09489
DS 0.99502
XP 0.91533
EM 0.91013
ESP 0.83933
DSP 0.83732
ES 0.61576
BSP 0.58617
SM2 0.58005
FM 0.5618
BS 0.48309
AS 0.47733
SS 0.4717
SM 0.46729
ASP 0.4662
FP 0.46083
HS 0.38023
DP 0.34884
F125 0.21142
DM 0.11249
BP 0
CP 0
AM 0
GP 0
EP -0.23175
FSAE -0.31612
CM -0.55006
BM -0.74153

[sperry]

So, what's SU gonna be? ;)

[MattR]

1

[Joeyy]

So, has anybody given any thought to the Class Restructuring for 08? Will we still have an overall PAX Championship? Was the Pro Class for 07 on a trial period or is it sticking around?

Figured I'd ask some of these questions do to the Reno SCCA news letter talking about it so much. I'm still out on the class restructuring for now. I don't really see how it increases competition. We allready watch everyone elses times and compete against everyone else on the overall PAX level. I think the buddy verses buddy competition that is going on out on the grid is well and alive for most everyone.

Last but not least, I'm for the old folks not having to snag cones but I'm not sure if we need to make it a rule. Holding a radio on the other hand and waving a flag is well within there grasp. Put them out on the course with a youngster and let them teach them something.

[wrxkidid]

Considering there isn't a ton of youngsters, I don't know how well that would work.

One thing that Taylor (540i) and I have noticed is we feel very alienated at events, as if we are not wanted there by many of the older competitors, so I doubt forcing them to help us youngsters learn would work very well at all.

[Dean]

I think people will change class for competition or compare their times to anyone who they believe to be their competition. The only value added by collapsing classes is to give away fewer year end trophies which I don't think is necessary for a club with a bank balance like ours.

I also think there will be a clear "dominant" car/driver within any collapsed structure such that it may cause additional frustration more than competition.

Also, any change is more work for Timing and Scoring and I think they do enough as it is.

As far as Senior work requirements... There are plenty of jobs they could do without having to run for cones. Registration, tech, announce, timing slips, etc. If they are so inclined, they could also exert the time and energy to become competent in T&S. That is at least 16-20 or so worker positions per day.

We also need more of the younger crew to step up to important roles like Safety, grid, setup and tear down. Many already help out with the later, but we can always use more.

We can change the T modifier to .97, split the classes T&R, split just PAX, or any combination. I don't really care, but I think we should keep the modifier in some form so folks can compare times if they choose. Nobody seams to believe the numbers when I do the Nationals ST to SP comparisons, so unless somebody asks, I'm not doing it this year.

[wrxkidid]

I am all for learning whatever will be helpful, if someone wants to teach me T&S I am more than willing, but positions like starter, grid and safety seem as though they would be more appropriate for the old geezers since there is less running involved, that is why I never really asked, but if someone wants to teach me, I am more than willing to learn.

[Joeyy]

When will some of these ideas actually get put to a vote? Next seasons schedule will start getting worked on after elections, correct?

[MattR]

Next seasons schedule will start getting worked on after elections, correct?

Soon, there's a lot of work put into making a schedule, asside from just picking weekends, and a lot of that includes waiting on other people (regions)...

And just a note, for every time someone asks me about the schedule...It's release gets pushed back by a day. :cool:

[Joeyy]

Soon, there's a lot of work put into making a schedule, asside from just picking weekends, and a lot of that includes waiting on other people (regions)...

And just a note, for every time someone asks me about the schedule...It's release gets pushed back by a day. :cool:

Actually you should bump it up by one day because I was kinda looking to volunteer some time and help with it, Mr. Matt.

[wrxkidid]

Soon, there's a lot of work put into making a schedule, asside from just picking weekends, and a lot of that includes waiting on other people (regions)...

And just a note, for every time someone asks me about the schedule...It's release gets pushed back by a day. :cool:

So when does the schedule come out? :P

[MattR]

That's +1

[MikeK]

I hope the schedule comes out before the first event

[Kevin M]

That would be nice.

[zpeed]

I got my Roll bars ready to install...

[wrxkidid]

That's +1

Is there any way to get a total cone count for the season? :lol:

[MattR]

So, since Global warming is apperantly true, how early does everyone want to start this year? We've never ventured into March, but hell, It will probably be 70 degrees by then this year.

[Kevin M]

We can wait til June, and it will still snow/sleet on us on Saturday of the first weekend. So I'm down with March. :D

[sperry]

So, since Global warming is apperantly true, how early does everyone want to start this year? We've never ventured into March, but hell, It will probably be 70 degrees by then this year.
Don't worry, we'll have clear weather 'till Jan, then it will snow Jan thru June.

[zpeed]

I just think that after install my roll bars I might go to RFR in Dec. for $100 day. Anybody want to come along?

[dknv]

...One thing that Taylor (540i) and I have noticed is we feel very alienated at events, as if we are not wanted there by many of the older competitors, so I doubt forcing them to help us youngsters learn would work very well at all.:( That's too bad that you felt that way. I can't think of anyone in Reno scca who does not want you or other younger competitors there -- but I'm sure improvements can be made with 'veterans' reaching out to the newbies and younger drivers.

As far as class restructuring, I've had personal experience with grouped classes in the Pro Solo series, where they classify all Ladies classes into 2 classes, L1 and L2. (The ProSolo pax is a bit different from SCCA Solo pax.) It's been my experience that there was always a class killer pax-wise, and if you weren't driving in that class with a properly set up car, you'd rarely be able to place let alone win an event. It led to hard feelings and resentment towards the drivers of the class killer cars (albeit money was also at stake). I'm not in favor of grouping classes because of this.

[MattR]

Does anyone know how to get a hold of Dave Levey??? (Black STI, novice class in scca) I have a novice award for him, but I can't remember if he's registered here or not...Anyone???

Matt

[MattR]

Okay, the schedule is near, it will officially be released at the SCCA general membership meeting on Wednesday Feb 6th...stay tuned.

[Joeyy]

We can wait til June, and it will still snow/sleet on us on Saturday of the first weekend. So I'm down with March. :D

What is the status of your 08 machine? Hell, what is the status of everyones autocross machines? With the schedule out, it has to get ya thinking.

I still need a couple sets of tires for the kart, brake work, some filters and some weight adjustments to be made. Last but not least a trailer will be nice but I have to line up the fundage.

[cody]

My 08 machine is identicle in every way to my 07 machine, except I'll be running RE01R's instead of RT615's.

[Nick Koan]

My 08 machine is identicle in every way to my 07 machine, except I'll be running RE01R's instead of RT615's.

Nice.

And we'll be racing against each other next year. Race Tire vs. Street Tire :D

[cody]

Is the T modifier the same as last year then?

[Nick Koan]

Nope. Its .975 now.

[cody]

That's cool. I'll take what I can get!

[MikeK]

My car works again as of 1 hour ago. I didn't drive it for 2 months and the battery died :(

[Nick Koan]

That's cool. I'll take what I can get!

Yeah, it knocks you street tire cheaters back roughly half a second closer to your place (on a 60 second course).

[A1337STI]

It also looks like the Astock PAX is much closer to ESP PAX this year. :)

looks like i'll be going faster (in respect to esp) this year (pax) with even out improving my driving :P