Lightweight RWD Subaru? Toyobaru...

[Libila]

It sounds like something Bobby and I would build...

http://assets.speedtv.com/images/article_assets/829/829013/829013_article_img_large1.jpg

A naturally aspirated version of the boxer engine with 175hp is being considered for the base model, and there is potential for a hot 2.5-liter turbocharged model later.

This will be a car inspired by the classic rear-drive AE86 Toyota Corolla GT coupe from the 1980s, a car known for tail-happy handling. Yet beneath the skin we can expect a reworked Impreza, shortened, lightened and with a customized coupe body.

Subaru’s trademark four-wheel drive system will be ditched to save weight, complexity and cost. However, if the standard model is a success then later plans could include a spiritual successor to the Toyota Celica GT4, featuring the 2.5-liter turbo boxer engine and four-wheel drive.

The rest of the article is here: http://automotive.speedtv.com/article/rear-drive-toyobaru-coupe-in-the-works/

[Bob Danger]

Toyota's been working on this for a while, but I had no idea Subaru was going to build there own version. The Toyota version appears to be more like the original, with a 120hp, 1.5l, I-4.

[Nick Koan]

You had some idea back when you originally posted this thread Bobby :lol:

http://www.seccs.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6077

[Kevin M]

I like how they claim AWD is pitched to save wight, but the Subaru AWD only adds two axles and slightly hevier hub carriers over a RWD configuration. :lol: Also, it will take about 5 seconds after these are released (if they ever are) before they've got an STI motor and 6MT in them.

[Libila]

You had some idea back when you originally posted this thread Bobby :lol:

http://www.seccs.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6077

:lol:

[MattR]

What kind of idiot would own a Subaru AND a Toyota.

[sperry]

What kind of idiot would own a Subaru AND a Toyota.
"Hey! You got your chocolate in my peanut butter!" ...

[100_Percent_Juice]

You have all been fooled. http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y62/thumpyJ/zoom.jpg

[cody]

http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/Subaru-Concepts/232133/#

[Kunikos]

Reminds me of the Celica for some reason.

[kidatari]

What kind of idiot would own a Subaru AND a Toyota.

Ya rly.


Oh wait, we now own a Toyota and a Subaru as well ;)

http://www.technotoytuning.com/miscnew/landcruiser2/P1010500.jpg

[sybir]

Get that thing dirty, you pussy! :D

[sperry]

Get that thing dirty, you pussy! :D
Are you channeling JC?

[MattR]

Ya rly.


Oh wait, we now own a Toyota and a Subaru as well ;)





Hehe, I was waiting for someone to comment...hahaha., Nice friggin cruiser dude.

[sybir]

Are you channeling JC?

Dear god, I hope not.







































I don't have any friends with 20's that'll fit the STi ;)

[cody]

http://wrxfanatics.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/toyota-subaru-coupe-illustration.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_FoXyvaPSnVk/SRmndiBeBKI/AAAAAAABXdY/w3dzd1mzoUc/s400/SUBYCCCP+copy.jpg
I really hope these aren't any indication what it will end up looking like. I was thinking it would be more like an old Celica.

http://wrxfanatics.com/blog/2008/11/subaru-toyota-love-child-rwd-couple-as-scion-tc-in-us/

[WRX06TR]

I believe this is what they are leaning towards...there is a big thread on it in the news and rumors section of NASIOC...
http://cache.jalopnik.com/assets/resources/2008/05/Subaru-coupe-front.jpg

[cody]

Okay, I was probably just confusing the Toybaru (Suby badge) with a new Subascion/ota (Scion/Toyota badge)?

[JonnydaJibba]

Okay, I was probably just confusing the Toybaru (Suby badge) with a new Subascion/ota (Scion/Toyota badge)?

WTF are you talking about?

[cody]

I really don't know. :lol:

[sperry]

Well, the concept car is out:

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2009/10/03-toyota-ft-86-concept-press.jpg

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/10/06/toyko-2009-preview-toyota-ft-86-concept-brings-back-the-hachiro/
http://www.autoblog.com/gallery/toyota-ft-86-concept

Toyota will be showing it at the Tokyo motor show. Not sure when the Subaru version will be unveiled... but likely we won't see anything conceptwise... they'll just come up with a production version and unveil that. The Toyota version will be powered by a 2.0L direct injection N/A Subaru flat-4. I'm hoping the Subaru version will be a premium/limited turbo 4 with AWD and cost enough that all the high school fanbois can't afford them... but that kinda goes against the whole point of the car, which is light, peppy, and RWD. It's literally the new Hachi Roku.

[100_Percent_Juice]

I don't know if I am a fan of the zipper themed interior.

[Bob Danger]

I hope they don't build it.

[Nick Koan]

Is that a track map of Fuji Speedway on the dash?

[BOO]

What kind of idiot would own a Subaru AND a Toyota.


Okay, I am a little late for this comment but yeah that would be ME as well. ;)

[Tahoe C5]

I want one with the Subaru badge and AWD!!!!!!

[sperry]

I don't know if I am a fan of the zipper themed interior.
It's a concept car. They get crazy interior treatments.

[MattR]

Where's the waiting list, I'm in.

[WRX06TR]

I like it...a lot! Too bad I won't be able to afford one haha...

[sperry]

I like it...a lot! Too bad I won't be able to afford one haha...
They should be cheaper than the WRX.

[ScottyS]

Let's hope the Subaru version gets different headlights.

[Jeikun]

I'm not so down with the interior either, but I'm liking the coupe. Will it be turbo'd or no? If so, why wouldn't it be more/the same as a WRX?

[Nick Koan]

The Toyota version above will be naturally aspirated. No word on whether the Subaru version (if they make one) will have a turbo (and/or AWD for that matter).

I'm guessing the Toyota model will be around 18k-20k, maybe less if they really want to make it the new AE86.

[sperry]

The Toyota version above will be naturally aspirated. No word on whether the Subaru version (if they make one) will have a turbo (and/or AWD for that matter).

I'm guessing the Toyota model will be around 18k-20k, maybe less if they really want to make it the new AE86.
It'll probably eek in at just under $25k. Then you'll option it out with basic stuff for over $30k. :unamused: But on paper, right now the rumor is that it should be cheaper (and slower for that matter, at least in a straight line) than a WRX.

This car is really competition for the Miata, RX-8, S2000. Think of it as a budget sports car, probably a cheaper and slower than those cars listed... maybe even think of it as a Scion'd Miata with immediate popularity in the "tuner scene". Which is why I'd like the Subaru version to be beefed up and more expensive... so the "lifestyle" types stay away from it meaning I can drive one around town w/o getting raced by every brodawg out there.

[100_Percent_Juice]

Scott, we all know you're the one doing the racing.

[sperry]

Scott, we all know you're the one doing the racing.
Pretty much any family sedan built within the last 10 years is faster than my SVX. I'm not enough of a glutton for punishment to go around trying to race everyone.

[WRX06TR]

They should be cheaper than the WRX.

I still won't be able to afford one lol. I like all wheel drive and can't afford two cars.

So is it the image that you are worried about or do you really get the "race rev" and attention from other drivers around town? Because even with my exhaust, gold wheels, and all windows rolled down I have been revved at once since I have had the car...

[bigrobwoot]

I don't know if I am a fan of the zipper themed interior.

You mean you don't love the wafer-thin seats? What the hell are they made of, the hopes and dreams of the designers?

[sperry]

You mean you don't love the wafer-thin seats? What the hell are they made of, the hopes and dreams of the designers?
They look about twice as thick as carbon fiber race shells, and those pass FIA crash testing. But I guarantee those seats don't make it to production.

[sperry]

I still won't be able to afford one lol. I like all wheel drive and can't afford two cars.

So is it the image that you are worried about or do you really get the "race rev" and attention from other drivers around town? Because even with my exhaust, gold wheels, and all windows rolled down I have been revved at once since I have had the car...
What I'm worried about is that the car will garner negative attention from both the ricers, and everyone else on the road.

I get people trying to race me in the SVX more than in my WRX. I'm guessing because it's relatively rare and looks fast, so people that don't know better think it's exotic and fast, which of course, it's not. Then I get clapped out hondas trying to prove themselves against me. The FT-86 kinda has a similar look, and I'd guess that until the car is commonplace, it's gonna get the same attention from the kiddies that learned all they know about cars from Gran Turismo.

My other concern is that this car will instantly become a huge fanboi car. It is, after all, the new AE86. I'm guessing it's going to be attention grabbing to all the same people that freak out whenever they see a Supra TT, or a drifted out 240sx, or an ITR, etc. So if it's affordable enough, there are going to be tons of ricers buying these things, drifting them, street racing them, making them look horrendous, etc, pretty much right away, rather than 8 years down the road the way the WRX went. I like the FT-86, but I'd like one that's a little more incognito and/or exclusive... which is what I'm hoping the Subaru version will be. I don't want the negative attention the car will get from everyone else if it's the ricer car de jour.

I'm probably being a little stuck up about it... but I'm already bitter about the way popularity has ruined so many WRXs to the point where every other WRX out there is a noise belching eyesore and insurance rates are bonkers. I guess I should be buying a Porsche. But then I'd have to deal with the Porsche douches... and pay way too much for that privilege... but at least I'd have a terrific car that flies under the radar except to the people that know enough to know the difference between the ubiquitous 996 base model 911 that you see everywhere and a 997 C4S.

[WRX06TR]

Well, I definitely know where you are coming from and I understand that you are unwilling to be lumped into that group of kids. I don't really think it is a stuck up point of view, hell I think there are a million WRX's out there with a bunch of kids who don't know how to drive and love to just be obscene and draw attention (I'm hopefully excluding myself from this group :lol:), and I don't like being tossed into that group because I'm 21.

I don't know if that car will get the same notoriety as a Supra TT or a 240 thats all "drifted out". They said that the Genesis Coupe was going to be the new Corolla AE86 and the new hot tuner scene car. And I have seen one on the road. Luckily I think we are a little out of the loop for "trends". I thought with the new prototype that the Subaru version was going to be worldwide and the Toyota version was only going to be in Japan. Which should help, because I still think that the Subaru name is sort of downplayed because I think more "young" kids would rather brandish the Honda or Mitsubihi logo. That my take at least.

I think that every car group has the negative connotation so where ever you go you are going to get the labels and douchbags who tarnish the name. Tuners are wreckless kids who love blow off valves and loud exhasut. Porsches are always considered pricks, Ferrari's are the same way. Anybody driving a domestic has a mullet and hates every import, lifted trucks are tools, and so on. I think if you want a neutral car you are going to have to get a Mazda 3 sedan thats white and leave it stock. I guess it's just which derogatory group would you like to be placed in... The young punk kids, the old geysers, or the middle aged flamboyants? (I'm not saying that I relate the above groups as I stated, but they all seem to be the general views).

[bigrobwoot]

I'm not saying the seats aren't plenty safe, but they don't look comfortable at all. It's like sitting in one of those plastic chairs from elementary school...


I get people trying to race me in the SVX more than in my WRX. I'm guessing because it's relatively rare and looks fast, so people that don't know better think it's exotic and fast, which of course, it's not.

It looks fast cuz it looks like a space ship.

[Bob Danger]

This car could draw attention, and flat-brimmers (if Ken Block gets one) away from the Impreza. Much like the WRX did for the DSM, leaving only the true enthusiasts. Either way this car will only help draw attention away from the Impreza. Needless to say Rufus and I are not looking forward to that.

I want to know what Toyota is thinking building this car. Marketing it as a replacement for the AE86 they must know that yuppies are going to be drifting these cars into every object above ground. I'd be willing to bet Toyota designs the suspension to understeer. The great thing about the original 86 is that it wasn't built to be a sports car. It was built as an eco box, but it turned into a fantastic drivers car. With the FT-86 they've designed a sports car, it should not carry the 86 name. It's like Lotus building a 200mph car and calling it an the new Elise. Colin Chapman would be pissed.






Ken Block sucks.

[bigrobwoot]

Well, in Toyota's defense, I doubt they care what people do with them after they buy them. Plus, if people wreck them, then they will want another one!

[Bob Danger]

Well, in Toyota's defense, I doubt they care what people do with them after they buy them. Plus, if people wreck them, then they will want another one!

They care because they have to warranty it. It's going to be just like Mitsubishi and the Evolution.

[Bob Danger]

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h45/bobdanger/abs.jpg

[sperry]

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h45/bobdanger/abs.jpg
ABS disable for Auto-X? I'm better the one on the left is the traction control override.

This car is likely to be a class killer unless it goes straight into street-prepared.

[Kevin M]

On paper, I don't see anything that suggests it's going to blow the RX8 out of B stock, and nothing with that level of horsepower is an SS or AS contender.

[Nick Koan]

What about the NOS button?

[Kevin M]

What about the NOS button?

The inevitable floorboard delete mod will bump it to Modified, so no problem there.

Also, further reflection indicates that this would be a competitive but not dominant CS car, unless it manages to be lighter than the Solstice/Sky and MX5 while using wider wheels and not having shite suspension geometry.

[sperry]

On paper, I don't see anything that suggests it's going to blow the RX8 out of B stock, and nothing with that level of horsepower is an SS or AS contender.
I dunno... imagine an RX-8 with 300+ hp and 300+ ftlbs of torque. Assuming the Subaru version is indeed sporting the STi motor, it's basically going to be a Vette with 1000lbs less weight.

But even if we're talking about the 200hp N/A Toyota version, it's still going to have a massive advantage over the RX-8 in terms of low-end torque, thus killing the B-Stock class, IMO. If it went to AS, it'd be a huge underdog meaning you'd have to have to go straight to BSP to be competitive, assuming it's a BSP car which seems pretty likely.

[Kevin M]

I think the NA version makes sense as a CSP car actually. It's heavier than the current CSP winners but has mroe power and can run more tire. The turbo motor variant would probably be in AS/ASP though. Like you said, it's basically a light Corvette.

[Libila]

86 Fanboi Edition

http://www.hachiroku.com.au/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/ft86-chop.jpg

[sperry]

86 Fanboi Edition

http://www.hachiroku.com.au/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/ft86-chop.jpg
Where's the street racing light-post impact damage?

[Libila]

Where's the street racing light-post impact damage?

Let me see what I can come up with in Paint.

[Bob Danger]

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h45/bobdanger/fan.jpg

[100_Percent_Juice]

What a racist.

[Libila]

Hahaha! Nice one Bobby.

[Nick Koan]

Haha, love he JDM noob driver tag on the door too.

[sperry]

Look what turned up at the 'ring.

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/10/13/toyota-subaru-coupe-prototype-spy-shots/

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2009/10/toybarucoupe.nr2.kgp.ed.jpg

[Libila]

Reminds me more of a 135.

[Libila]

The first batch of pictures are in from Tokyo...

http://cache-09.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/12/2009/10/500x_topshot4.jpg

50 more pictures can be seen here: http://jalopnik.com/5381432/toyota-ft+86-now-with-high+res-mega+gallery

[Nick Koan]

Well, some random website I've never heard of has "confirmed" that the Subaru version will have AWD + turbo

http://www.7tune.com/confirmed-bigger-badder-subaru-216a/

[van]

Why would the STI version be taller?

[Nick Koan]

For 6'4" 'mericans.

[van]

For 6'4" 'mericans.

I thought we just got wider seats.

[Kevin M]

20mm is probably just from taller wheels/tires and/or more AWD-appropriate ride height.

[sperry]

I'm calling bs on that "confirmation". Not that I wouldn't be happy to see a turbo awd version, just that those dimensional changes don't appear to be enough to fit the motor in front of the front axle and I don't expect to see Subaru develop a whole new awd layout just for this car.

Plus a photoshoped image from that site isn't exactly "confirmation". The don't cite any real sources. At this point I'm still in believe it when I see it mode.

[Kevin M]

Yeah, you're right. There's no way that car can run the current Subaru AWD setup.

[van]

ring video YouTube- Erlkönig: Toyota Sportwagen

[van]

Delayed two years (http://jalopnik.com/5548326/report-toyota-ft+86-delayed-two-years)

[sperry]

Delayed two years (http://jalopnik.com/5548326/report-toyota-ft+86-delayed-two-years)
Maybe so they can design AWD into the platform?

Or more likely, so they can kill the whole project slowly.

[Nick Koan]

Bump!

A lot of news since this thread was last bumped, but the big news is that the Subaru version finally has a name. The BRZ.

http://jalopnik.com/5833452/

Cool car broz.

[Bob Danger]

I've been keeping up on the toyota version, and they've done some interesting things with the EJ20. The completely recast the block, and are running direct injection. I'd like to see the changes in person.

[WRXlerate]

I don't know why subaru has not switched to direct injection, they are falling behind the times. I was hoping to see it when they switched the body style in '08.

[sperry]

I don't know why subaru has not switched to direct injection, they are falling behind the times. I was hoping to see it when they switched the body style in '08.
The revision to the EJ motor that went into the 2011 Forester is purportedly the first step in a DI motor. The 2012's are supposed to finally have direct injection. Not that it will likely be in the turbo motors that soon. But Subaru has to really do something to get their mileage up... it's too big of a selling point these days, and people don't understand the reason Subaru's mileage numbers aren't as good as other 4-bangers is because of the AWD losses.

[A1337STI]

I wish part of their MPG solution was to lighten up their cars...

with all the modern safety standards I'm not sure they can really do a lot in that area though...

[Libila]

Not that this really says anything that the Jalopnik didn't but...

http://www.subaru-global.com/11frankfurt/teaser/

[Nick Koan]

Subaru is teasing the presses with a "Concept STi" version of the BRZ to be unveiled at the LA Auto show in two weeks.

http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/new-subaru-brz-sti-revealed-2011-11-01

They released a pic, but say it isn't the same as what will be unveiled.

[Nick Koan]

Some more "photos"

http://jalopnik.com/5855327/subaru-brz-sti-concept-gallery/gallery/1

[cody]

Not bad. Looks like an RX-8.

[Nick Koan]

Closer to the real thing

http://jalopnik.com/5860120/

Important bits:

a 2.0-liter four developed exclusively for the BRZ, with Toyota's direct-injection tech
Subaru also says the BRZ STI's engine sits 120 mm (4.72 inches) lower than those of other Subaru models, and 240 mm (9.45 inches) closer to the center of the chassis. Thus the ultra-low center of gravity.

[Bob Danger]

Here they are the GT-86, and the BRZ.

http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/subaru-brz-coupe-revealed-2011-11-29

http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/toyota-gt-86-officially-revealed-2011-11-28

[cody]

The BRZ looks so much better than the GT-86.

[100_Percent_Juice]

At 0:46 of the GT-86 video there is a really sweet looking badge.

[Nick Koan]

And here is the Scion version that the US will be getting instead of the Toyota.

http://jalopnik.com/5864045/

Basically the same as the Toyota version.

EDIT: I didn't notice this before.

http://cache.jalopnik.com/assets/images/12/2011/12/xlarge_6f900aa2621c73e28bf4bf2bd454c233.jpg

This must be the badge you were talking about juice.

[100_Percent_Juice]

Yeah that's the one I'm talking about. Only the one is the video is painted and looks way better. Here is a screen shot.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y62/thumpyJ/badge.jpg

[IheartSTI]

i saw the scion version at sema. looked amazing! i was really surprised and i think it was the coolest car at sema 2011.

[Nick Koan]

It took me a long time to figure out what that logo was. For a long time, I seriously did think it was a stylized BS.

[sperry]

i saw the scion version at sema. looked amazing! i was really surprised and i think it was the coolest car at sema 2011.
That was the concept car at SEMA, no?

I actually think the production Scion FR-S is rather ho-hum... at least the interior is friggen plain/cheap. Of course, that's the point, I guess.

The production BRZ's interior is a lot nicer... but the exterior is boring. Looks like the best version is the Toyota GT 86 we're not getting in the US (as usual). That said, if this car is as fun to drive as the reviews are hinting, and I fit in it, and it's in the $25k range... I may change my plans of picking up an older 911 in favor of a new BRZ.

[Nick Koan]

Well then, good news for you!

http://jalopnik.com/5864550/

The BRZ will reportedly start at around $24,000 and rise to $27,000 for the Limited model.

[sperry]

Well then, good news for you!

http://jalopnik.com/5864550/
Nice... since I wouldn't get the Limited model anyway. Who wants leather in a car like this? In fact, it's a shame the car comes with Nav standard... I'd rather have no stereo.

Of course... $24,000 on launch day is $32,000 after the dealer markup on a "limited production" car. :mad:

[Nick Koan]

Road and Track has their test drive article up.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/tests/drives/2013-subaru-brz

The reason I'm posting this here?

There are two possible negatives inside. Subaru may call this a 2+2, but that’s being optimistic. It’s more like a 2+ kids. Subaru points out, howevever, that with the folding rear seatback you can fit a pair of golf bags or four racing tires, helmet and tools in back.

[Nick Koan]

Because race car

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LjYl7VfFKE

Edit: I can also see "Proud of BOXER" becoming a thing.

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Sick.

If I didn't need awd, I'd consider that for the next car.

[Kevin M]

Sick.

If I didn't need awd, I'd consider that for the next car.

Even around here, I can get AWD in a Subaru for under $5k. This car has me re-assessing medium-term financial planning.

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Yeah.. I don't need a sub-$5k shitpile, I already have one of those. My next car is going to be actually nice..

[sperry]

Yeah.. I don't need a sub-$5k shitpile, I already have one of those. My next car is going to be actually nice..
I was going to say... Who really wants a sub $5k Subaru? Especially when any awd Subaru that barely runs is worth about $3000, I can't imagine what $5k gets you.

...unless you want an svx of course. Because $6k will get you my svx and it's in great shape.

[cody]

How does this compare to something like the Hyundai Genesis Coup? Without doing any of my own research, wouldn't the Hyundai be faster for the same money?

[Nick Koan]

How does this compare to something like the Hyundai Genesis Coup? Without doing any of my own research, wouldn't the Hyundai be faster for the same money?

The 2.0T coupe is 210 hp, but in a bigger car with 500+ more pounds. That's $23K. The V6 adds 100hp, and 100 lbs for $27k.

So, I'd personally take the base BRZ (or even the scion) over the 2.0T. Since there is no BRZ STI, the v6 genesis coupe might be a beter deal for straighline speed. Everyone is raving about the BRZ handling, though, so I'd probably still test drive both.

[Kevin M]

I was going to say... Who really wants a sub $5k Subaru? Especially when any awd Subaru that barely runs is worth about $3000, I can't imagine what $5k gets you.

...unless you want an svx of course. Because $6k will get you my svx and it's in great shape.

The $5k Subaru would replace the Forester, and basically only be used for days where driving around in a RWD sports coupe I really like is a bad idea.

[Bob Danger]

So if the BRZ is going to be the new entry level sports car for Subaru, what does that mean for the Impreza? Will it become even bigger maybe replacing the Legacy as the middle of the range. Then the Lagacy will become the high end Subaru competing with the larger German saloons.

[khail19]

I don't really consider the Impreza a sports car at all.

[Kevin M]

I don't really consider the Impreza a sports car at all.

This. Even the STI isn't a "sports car." The WRX and STI are plenty fast, but without significant modification they aren't sharp handling cars.

[rory_a]

Sick.

If I didn't need awd, I'd consider that for the next car.

If the BRZ was available in AWD, my parents would probably be on the waiting list for one... Been looking at the blah G37X coupe. I think I talked my dad into an early/used GTR as an alternative though, time will tell.

if this car is as fun to drive as the reviews are hinting, and I fit in it, and it's in the $25k range... I may change my plans of picking up an older 911 in favor of a new BRZ.

After close to 20 years of "wanting"/talking about getting a driver 911, and the full build of his old Vette, my dad dropped the idea of getting a 911 as the maintenance isn't worth it to him. Now he's thinking Japanese luxo/sports coupe.


How does this compare to something like the Hyundai Genesis Coup? Without doing any of my own research, wouldn't the Hyundai be faster for the same money?

The BRZ is about half a foot shorter. There's a pic floating around comparing profiles of BRZ, Miata, Genisis coupe, Mustang - the Genisis and Mustang being nearly the same length, while the BRZ and Miata are close. BRZ is also about 4" narrower that Genisis/Mustang.

[rory_a]

I don't really consider the Impreza a sports car at all.

This. Even the STI isn't a "sports car." The WRX and STI are plenty fast, but without significant modification they aren't sharp handling cars.

The Impreza is nothing more than an econo-box. The WRX and STI are overpriced hopped up versions. No different than Civic, Civic SI. And Subaru really needs to step ip the fuel economy to keep competitive. Most people don't need AWD, and aren't willing to pay the premium at the dealers and at the pump for it.


That said, I'm quite happy with my econo-shit-box, one that didn't even come from the factory with a damn stereo or sound deadening/insulation. Cheap bastards.

(IBFlamedBecauseRaceCar)

[Bob Danger]

I don't really consider the Impreza a sports car at all.

I agree I'm banned from RS25.com for arguing that point. Look at what happened to the civic after the fit came out, it got fatter and softer. I see the impretzel doing the same.

[sperry]

Technically, the BRZ isn't a sports car either. It's got two too many seats and one too many roofs.

[rory_a]

The number of seats might have something to with insurance and registration cost differences that could hinder global sales.


That being said, my belief is that basically every Porsche aside from the early tractors, Cayenne, and Panamera, with some randoms mixed in, have been sports cars. And, aside from the 356 Speedster, 550 Spyder and other early race homologation specials, later Speedsters, Boxster, Caymen, and a few other random models, all production models have been 2+2. And, all of those were sold in larger numbers in the 2+2 hardtop, sunroof, targa, panarama glass roof, other other enclosed variants, than their soft-top siblings.

Just sayin'


* I forgot the Porsche/VW 914. It was a two seater. Mid/Rear too. Then again, most Porsche purists don't think of it as a "real" Porsche.

[sperry]

The strict/traditional definition of a sports car is a closed wheels, two seater, with no roof. Off the top of my head, the only sports cars for sale today are the Miata, Elise, and Boxster, since the s2000 and solstice/sky got canned. And I guess there are some kit cars out there like the Caterham Super7 or the FFM Cobra replicas that are true sports cars.

Cars people call sports cars, like the 911, Vette, most Ferraris, etc are all actually GT cars. Definitions from the 20's aren't all that useful today since the lines between genres have been so blurred over 100 years of car design. My point is that it's a futile exercise to argue about whether or not an Impreza is a "sports car" when cars that people almost universally agree are sports cars actually aren't.

[rory_a]

I still like my econo-shit-box ;) :banana:

[Kevin M]

I wouldn't deny categorizing certain fixed-roof cars as not being "sports cars." The puny-ass, useless, insurance-classification-busting back seats don't do it either. As pointed out, a 911 of any variation is a sports car. A Corvette is too, and I would argue more so when it's a coupe and not a convertible. The 350Z and RX-8 are sports cars too.

I can buy the argument that a GT is not a sports car; however, it takes more to be a GT than 4 seats, 2 doors and RWD.

[sperry]

I absolutely do not classify all 911s as sports cars. The 911 Turbo is the pinnacle example of a GT car. In fact, I would categorically reject all AWD cars from sports car classification.

But once again the problem here isn't with agreeing on which cars are or aren't sporty, it's one of agreeing upon the definition of "sports car" in which to place sporty cars. Since the term isn't well defined, it's almost meaningless as a descriptive category.

[Kevin M]

Understood. I would argue that a car that handles reasonably well for its price and era, and isn't good for much beyond moving two people around at brisk speeds, is arguably a "sports car." Performance has to be placed a little ahead of comfort, and way ahead of any sort of practicality. A GT car differs in that it sacrifices some of that performance (more handling than power of course, a true GT is plenty fast) for a lot of comfort. A GT is something you want to be in for cutting a 9 hour trip to 6 hours. A sports car is for 2 hours of going nowhere at 60-80 mph.