Exhaust cut-out & more on the road tuning.

[cody]

Ed tuned my car yesterday and everything went 100% awesome. I'll just give a quick account of it here. We started tuning around 3:30pm and the temps were in the low 90's for most of the tune. We did a baseline and since my advanced multiplier was only at 7, the car was weak. (I don't remember the HP, but Ed said, it rivaled stock). I didn't think my car seemed much faster after the UP, DP, and CBE installs. Perhaps my car didn't like the free flowing exhaust. Ed quickly fixed all that.

After he loaded a baseline he had created, the car felt like a whole new beast. After 3.5 hours of tweaking and perfecting, I was at 206 WHP and 208 Ft/Lbs IIRC. I think it was a 40 whp improvement from baseline IIRC. The real cool thing is that Ed kept saying he couldn't believe how great my boost response was. After a shift, the boost needle would swing violently and stop on a dime at 17psi. I guess most WRX solenoids are weak and people have been replacing them with an inexpensive GM solenoid. He mentioned that he really prefers divorced wastegate DP's (like mine) as it makes it so much easier to tune the boost maps. He had never tuned a car with Crucial pipes and we were both impressed at how much they helped spool up. I was so stoked at how my car's responsiveness and power were improved upon, and the attention to detail Ed exercised.

As far as danger goes, we only did around 10 3rd gear pulls to redline and checked for boost spiking in 4th. I don't think I was ever asked to exceed 95, but I did anyway because I had never felt 4th and 5th pull so hard and I was stoked. He warned me not to "load up" 5th at low RPM's, and it was better to downshift. I agreed, but man, I could have cruised all the way up 80 in 5th if I had wanted and accelerated too. This is nothing like my old car.

We also went from a stop to the top of 3rd a couple times. At no time did I feel that anybody was in significant danger. Traffic was scarce and if there was a car or a bicylce (once) we wouldn't speed past them. There were no cross steets or driveways or crosswalks or blindspots or anything on the "dyno" portions of the road. I am no longer as sceptical of the danger factor. I actually got passed while driving around 55 between pulls a few times. Most cars just jam down these roads.

For reference, here's my mod list:

03 WRX:

Borla Hush CBE, Crucial UP & DP, K&N Drop-In, Heat Wrapped Stock Headers, Intake Silencer Delete, Omori Boost & EGT Gauges mounted in an Autometer 52mm Bezel Pod, Gun Metal Rota Torque 17's, Yoko AVS ES100's, Eibach Pro Kit Springs, KYB AGX Struts, Fumoto Oil Drain Valve, Rock Blocker Clear Bra, Mr. Josh's Solid Endlinks, and an '02 Sedan Rear Anti-Sway Bar. Protuned by Equilibrium Tuning.

[AtomicLabMonkey]

I wonder how much longer he'll be able to run a business/service that depends on breaking the law. It's one thing when you're out by yourself doing it for shits & giggles, but running a business that way opens yourself up to a shitstorm of legal liability.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by AtomicLabMonkey

I wonder how much longer he'll be able to run a business/service that depends on breaking the law. It's one thing when you're out by yourself doing it for shits & giggles, but running a business that way opens yourself up to a shitstorm of legal liability.

I'm sure he'll keep doing it until he gets busted. And even then, he may just move operations elsewhere. As long as there are customers, right.

That is unless he gets himself killed/injured by a n00b driver, or sued into oblivion by a customer whos car blows up or something.

Cody, what sort of warrenty or guarentee did you get with your tune? Did you have to sign any waivers? I'm curious as to what sort of protection Ed's left himself if he blows up someone's car.

[cody]

Originally Posted by sperry

I'm sure he'll keep doing it until he gets busted. And even then, he may just move operations elsewhere. As long as there are customers, right.

That is unless he gets himself killed/injured by a n00b driver, or sued into oblivion by a customer whos car blows up or something.

Cody, what sort of warrenty or guarentee did you get with your tune? Did you have to sign any waivers? I'm curious as to what sort of protection Ed's left himself if he blows up someone's car.

I didn't sign anything nor did he. I just assumed it was a risk and I would be responsible for any problems, although I did joke with him, that if he blew up my motor, he'd be buying me an STI motor.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by cody

I didn't sign anything nor did he. I just assumed it was a risk and I would be responsible for any problems, although I did joke with him, that if he blew up my motor, he'd be buying me an STI motor.

Ouch. Road tuning aside... that's reason enough for me to stay away from Ed's operation. At S-Squared, since I know they're a licensed shop, if they break anything they're responsible for their work. If I go to pick up my car and the motor's blown, it's on them to make it right. That's worth the extra cost of the dyno tune right there.

...'course if I pick up the car and blow it up in Lovelock for example... well shame on me. But at least I know I'm covered from the shop's errors.

What do you think happens if Ed blows up a car while road tuning? Does he just blame it on the owner's driving? Does Ed have insurance? Has he protected himself personally from his business?

Not to keep harping on this... I'm just amazed at the risks (both financial and personal) Ed's willing to take to run his tuning business!

[sonicsuby]

Originally Posted by AtomicLabMonkey

I wonder how much longer he'll be able to run a business/service that depends on breaking the law. It's one thing when you're out by yourself doing it for shits & giggles, but running a business that way opens yourself up to a shitstorm of legal liability.

Actually, if he gets stopped the police will likely share the same argument as Eds supporters:

"No, Ed, don't worry, man, other people break the law too, so it's cool that you're doing this. We were just hoping you could protune our Crown Vics!"

[MikeSTI]

Glad to hear things went smothly and you didn't find the experence bad.

I bet you enjoy that new found power!!!

what did he use to tune with? I may have missed it, but you had an AP right? did you use Street Tuner or something else?

[sonicsuby]

he uses protuner

[doubleurx]

Congratulations on the power gains.

Man Scott, I think reading all these posts here and on I-club just ate an hour of time. Great posts though.

Well gotta run and break some laws!

[cody]

Originally Posted by MikeSTI

Glad to hear things went smothly and you didn't find the experence bad.

I bet you enjoy that new found power!!!

what did he use to tune with? I may have missed it, but you had an AP right? did you use Street Tuner or something else?

Thanks Mike, I appreciate your enthusiasm. I got Protuned so my AP has a few maps I can choose from, all made by Ed. He even improved the anti-theft map to kill the injectors as well as limit the redline to 0 RPM. The cool thing is, I told Ed my boost was maxing out at 14 psi when aproaching Reno on my drive home last night and he said if that continues to load a new map he just emailed me. I'm so glad I went with Protune instead of ECUTek for this and other similar reasons. He's also going to be up this way in about a month and he's going to check on my car to see how the tune looks up here. Very cool.

Oh and after adjusting for my tire size, it turns out I actually peaked at 208 WHP

[cody]

Also, if anyone wants to benefit from Ed's tuning ability and enthusiasm, off the road, he always can schedule dyno time. He actually offered that to me when I asked him some questions about safety.

Also, I asked him about liability issues for you guys and this was his response:

If I blew up the engine WHILE tuning I would certainly take responsibility for it. Just like any other tuner, however, if the customer blows up the engine in the distant future by adding mods or filling up with 87 or something of the like, I obviously cannot be held liable. On that note, I do have a waiver that I have my customers sign and it completely slipped my mind yesterday. I'll attatch it with your invoice and you can either mail it to me or I can pick it up when I come to Reno.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by cody

Holy cow, I'm was making just under 80 more HP at 3K RPM's! :o

Huh? 105 - 85 = 20.

[cody]

Sorry, I just reworded that and added more stuff to avoid a triple post.

182-103=79 (aka, just under 80)

Ok, nevermind, I'm dumb.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by cody

Sorry, I just reworded that and added more stuff to avoid a triple post.

182-103=79 (aka, just under 80)

You're now making 105hp at 3000 rpm. You were making 85 hp. That's +20, which is still pretty good, but not 80 hp.

What's more impressive is the 30+ additional ftlbs of torque at 3k rpm, and even better, the 210 ftlbs at 4000 rpm.

[doubleurx]

Originally Posted by sperry

Huh? 105 - 85 = 20.

I think sperry is correct unless we are reading the chart incorrectly?

You may be looking at the new torque number of 183 to the new hp?

[cody]

Yah, oops.

I removed that part. Gawd! Idiot! /Napolean

[knucklesplitter]

Originally Posted by sperry

If you're busted by the cops, at 100+, it's jail time.

Impound and jail time are possibilities, but not necessarily. I've been stopped twice in my life for 100+ (both times on deserted roads FWIW). SCHP gave me a $200 ticket 10 years ago or so for 108 in a 55 and I went on my way. Last summer NHP stopped me east of Tonopah and gave me only a verbal warning and he was only concerned that he might have to spend all night cleaning me up if I hit a free-range cow. Not proud, not advocating, just telling how it is.

Originally Posted by Dean

In a modern knock sensor ECU car, I'd be surprised if you could ever hear the knock before the ECU takes it away. If you do, your tune is so far bad, the ECU can't compensate.

This is incorrect I think. My '04 STI (when it was bone stock) would audibly ping/knock with the factory ECU with bad gas and/or hot weather. My '03 WRX did this too with Cobb Stage 1 (only ECU reflash) and bad gas and/or heat.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by knucklesplitter

This is incorrect I think. My '04 STI (when it was bone stock) would audibly ping/knock with the factory ECU with bad gas and/or hot weather. My '03 WRX did this too with Cobb Stage 1 (only ECU reflash) and bad gas and/or heat.

I've heard the ol' STi popcorn machine coming from MattR's hood too on a bad tank of gas as well. However, I think that's an extreme case caused by a large change in parameters as seen by the ECU: i.e. the ECU can't instantly adapt to the sudden appearance of low octane fuel.

Under normal conditions, a car running up near knock will properly adapt and avoid audible pinging as the temperature increases, or as the humidity changes, etc, even on a highly tuned car. In fact, if you were to gradually lower your octane by adding 87 to the car a gallon every 50 miles or so, you'd probably be able to under-tune the car to run on that swill... assuming you don't mind a motor that makes no power.

As was mentioned, and as I found out the hard way, the ECU unfortunately can't react to anything above 6k rpm. Which is probably a contributing factor to why I spun a bearing when my car knocked at 7000 rpm at the last Lovelock Club Trials. But below that threshold, the ECU does a very good job at protecting the car under dynamic circumstances.

[knucklesplitter]

Originally Posted by cody

...my boost was maxing out at 14 psi when aproaching Reno on my drive home last night...

Did you get tuned at a lower elevation? With AccessPorts your boost will drop as you go higher. I can't explain exactly why, but I saw it all the time when driving between Reno and Sac. or Vegas. Go up Tioga Pass and it will drop even more. You may want multiple maps - one for Reno and one for sea level, if anything to prevent overboost when going back to sea level.

I haven't noticed this with my UTEC, but I really haven't taken the car down low too much.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by sperry

I've heard the ol' STi popcorn machine coming from MattR's hood too on a bad tank of gas as well. However, I think that's an extreme case caused by a large change in parameters as seen by the ECU: i.e. the ECU can't instantly adapt to the sudden appearance of low octane fuel.

Under normal conditions, a car running up near knock will properly adapt and avoid audible pinging as the temperature increases, or as the humidity changes, etc, even on a highly tuned car. In fact, if you were to gradually lower your octane by adding 87 to the car a gallon every 50 miles or so, you'd probably be able to under-tune the car to run on that swill... assuming you don't mind a motor that makes no power.

As was mentioned, and as I found out the hard way, the ECU unfortunately can't react to anything above 6k rpm. Which is probably a contributing factor to why I spun a bearing when my car knocked at 7000 rpm at the last Lovelock Club Trials. But below that threshold, the ECU does a very good job at protecting the car under dynamic circumstances.

OK, I rephrase my statement that under normal conditions, you should never hear the knock.

Now if your tune has the timing map so far advanced or the fuel so lean such that the ECU isn't permitted to pull enough timing to compensate, then don't blame it on the knock sensor.

I would think load would drop off significantly above 6K, so knock should not be an issue as timing should have been pulled as you went through the higher load RPMs unless you do a big downshift right before increasing load. I guess if you are leaning out at high RPMs due to fuel starvation, that might contribute to it. But again, that would be a map problem, not a knock sensor problem.

Oh, and before you jump all over me, I don't think lean fuel mix directly generates detonation, but the increased combustion chamber temperatures as the mix leans out certianly do.

[cody]

Originally Posted by knucklesplitter

Did you get tuned at a lower elevation? With AccessPorts your boost will drop as you go higher. I can't explain exactly why, but I saw it all the time when driving between Reno and Sac. or Vegas. Go up Tioga Pass and it will drop even more. You may want multiple maps - one for Reno and one for sea level, if anything to prevent overboost when going back to sea level.

I haven't noticed this with my UTEC, but I really haven't taken the car down low too much.

Ed tweaked the final map a bit to give slightly higher wastegate duty cycles only at higher elevations. He emailed it to me and I reflashed the ECU this morning with it. Seems pretty good so far, but I'm still seeing a tiny dip from 17 to 16 or 15 on some pulls and I'm not hitting target boost in 1st. I only get about 13-14 most 1st gear pulls. Ed thinks the map may require a little tweaking when he comes up next month, but he wants me to describe what's happening with the boost in better detail. He hasn't given up on tweaking the map a little bit at a time and emailing it to me.

Anybody with a video camera feel like going for a ride tonight?

[knucklesplitter]

Not hitting target boost in first (or even second) gear is quite common, and often there is nothing to do about it. What happens is the engine revs through first gear quicker than the turbo can spool up, and by the time it spools the engine's flow is past the turbo's peak flow capacity, thus limiting boost. Also first gear doesn't generate as much exhaust heat which limits spool and boost.

This is why I... err, I mean some tuners do road-tuning log runs in fourth gear where they know boost is fully formed and stable.

[cody]

In Davis, Ed kept commenting that my car had incredible boost response. He said it acted like I had a MBC or a GM solenoid. After a shift, I would immediately see peak boost and it would hold solid. I was hitting target boost very early, even in 1st. It must be the Crucial pipes. They're ceramic coated and really well made. The divorced WG design is preferale as well.

Anyway, it's running good and strong up here, but boost should look better we think. Anybody in town have Delta Dash or any logging tools? Or like I said before, a digital camera with video ability will work too. Mine has it, but it's pretty crappy...doesn't have to be tonight.

Thanks for your input knucklesplitter.

[knucklesplitter]

Originally Posted by cody

Ed tweaked the final map a bit to give slightly higher wastegate duty cycles only at higher elevations... ...but I'm still seeing a tiny dip from 17 to 16 or 15 on some pulls...

I don't think this is a wastegate duty cycle issue. Upping the duty cycle will cause a boost overshoot (not quite a spike) which is what you are seeing when it maybe hits 17psi and then settles lower. BTW I also don't think the duty cycle can be programmed relative to elevation, so watch for overboost when you descend to lower elevations. You really need a different target boost number at higher elevations to maintain constant target boost... I think. My experience is with UTEC, but I think the concept is the same, as UTEC has duty cycle and a target boost map.

I'm not a tuning expert, but I play one on message boards.

[cody]

Well I just learned there is a barometric pressure sensor that the car uses. When I asked if it would be good to switch back to the Davis map if I was visiting CA, Ed said the tweaks he made "should" only affect the car at higher elevations so don't bother.