Obviously, I'm merely arguing for the sake of the conversation, but we aren't arguing legality, we're arguing morality. If homosexuality were illegal, it wouldn't change your view, would it? And if consent is all that it takes, why can't a girl get effed by her german shepherd on her kitchen floor? Or a horse?

Morality of an action comes from the effect that action has on another. Cheating on your wife is immoral because it hurts your wife. Gay sex is moral because it's consensual and doesn't hurt anyone. I don't need the word of god to tell me what's moral and what's not... if that's what the Bible is supposed to be for, then it's extremely poorly written, as demonstrated by this very conversation. The golden rule of simply treating others the way you wish to be treated is all you really need in order to determine morality of an action, or more accurately, the golden rule should be "treat others the way they wish to be treated". Outside of that, all the other rules and laws in the Bible are essentially detailed enumerations of actions stemming from the golden rule, or stuff tossed in there because it was common practice of the era and religion was the de facto mechanism for government/societal norms, so it got written down too.

I'm sorry if I sounded like I almost said that. Because it was my intent to exactly say that. Sexuality/sexual preference is just something hardwired into you at birth, and it's not a cut and dry straight/gay... some people are way off to either side, some are somewhere in the middle... it is quite literally the same mechanism that results in all the variations in skin tone you see in the people all around you.

It's the right of society to impose limits on behavior when said behavior harms those that can't protect themselves. Human society is our greatest achievement and the reason why we're the dominant animal on the planet... we have the ability to protect those that would otherwise fall to the anarchy that comes without morality.

If a person says they're gay, that's good enough for me, after all who's in a better position to decide if someone's gay than the person themselves? Being gay isn't defined by action. It's an inherent trait of a person. At least that's what the science points to, and that's what gay people themselves say. And you can make the argument that rapists, molesters, etc. too are inherently what they are... but again the difference is their actions are harmful. Plus the science tends to show that people with those sorts of deviant behaviors have a history of abuse that made them into a person like that, whereas gay people come from all walks of life, all backgrounds, and appear to be about 10% of the population regardless of environment/society/background/race/etc.

I guess all I can say is that I'd rather err on the side of allowing gay folks to live their lives as they choose, than to try to force a different morality on them, since they don't seem to think they're doing anything immoral and they're not hurting anyone with their lifestyle. Certainly I'm not going to change your mind on this, and there's nothing you can quote from the Bible that will change mine because, while I view the Bible as an interesting document from both a historical and moral point, I don't believe it's more relevant to determining the way anyone should live their lives than letting people determine for themselves what it means to be a good person.

Really if god wrote the Bible to instruct his people, why would he make it so hard to understand? Why would he only tell people in the middle east and then expect them to convert everyone else on the planet? Why would he stop talking directly to people 2000 years ago (or 3500 years ago if you're Jewish, or 1300 years ago if you're Muslim, or 180 years ago if you're Mormon)? I just don't see the evidence that the Bible is anything more than an assembled index of documents about morality inspired by god but written by man, some of which is timeless and guiding, and some of which is dated and useless as anything but historical reference. I'm not trying to dump on the Bible, I'm just pointing out that I think it's counterproductive to try to interpret the whole thing literally because you get lost in the act of trying to account for all the discrepancies rather than focus on the spirit of the document. One error in the Bible does not invalidate the whole thing, except to folks that buy into the idea that the Bible is supposedly the literal word of an infallible, omnipotent god.

Animals don't really have the mental capacity for consent. I disagree with your assertion that an animal acting on instincts is the same as proper informed consent. But, if you can actually prove conscious consent, then as long as you don't make me watch it, what you like to do is your own deal and none of my business.

The world today has the "if it feels good, do it" and "don't tell me what I can and can't do" mentality.

Nothing is wrong with having a strong relationship with a person of the same sex. I have male friends that I love and would give my life for. It is natural to have love for a person of the same gender. It is unnatural to have sexual intercourse with them. It all comes back to a persons actions. Everything you do in life has consequences. For those that believe the bible, homosexuality has serious consequences.

For those who don't believe the bible, take God out of the equation. Medically speaking there are numerous risks involved with same gender sex. Not only that but, the human body is not designed for it.

I don't think I have ever told anyone how to live their life or imposed my own belief on them. There are however, many that do. Look at it from a different angle. Think back to when you were a kid. I am sure that at one time your dad told you not to play in the street. Did he say that because he wanted to suck all the fun out of your life? No, he probably said it to keep you safe from harm.

As children we don't always understand our parents rules and guidelines. As we grow older and mature it becomes clear that many of the things our parents did were for our benefit.

As imperfect humans it is impossible to understand all of God's thoughts. We do however have his word that is filled with guidelines to help us live a happy fulfilling life. 2 Peter 3:9 tells us that God "does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance."

I could be a real pain in the butt when I was a kid. There were many times that I disobeyed my dad and he would discipline me. Some times I even got spanked for the crap I did. Did that mean my dad didn't love me? No, quite the opposite. My dad cared about me a great deal and wanted me to grow up to be a good man. This is the same as our relationship with our heavenly father. Hebrews 12:11 says "True, no discipline seems for the present to be joyous, but grievous; yet afterward to those who have been trained by it it yields peaceable fruit, namely, righteousness."



hows that for long winded.:lol:

I will give $20 to anybody for every quote they can find from the Bible attributed directly to Jesus of Nazareth that mentions homosexuality specifically.

Quotes by Paul of Tarsus do not count. He never even met Jesus.
.. and he was probably gay...

Medically speaking, it's all just nerve endings getting stimulated, and reportedly it feels pretty good. And, just like heterosexual sex, there aren't any risks that can't be mitigated with proper protection and techniques.

That's not new. As long as humans have had advanced language and "society" there have been those in power, and those who think they suck.

What does "unnatural" mean?

Does it? Many churches believe otherwise.

Done.

Those risks are identical to heterosexual sex... if you account for specific sex acts. The "not designed for it" line is bullshit too. There's a right way and a wrong way of doing anything you want to do to your body.


You're quoting the Bible to support anti-homosexual views. So this statement is patently false- you are indeed telling people how to live their lives, because if they don't do it you're way you think they're going to hell.

Also nothing new.

Erroneous application of your analogy. It assumes that homosexuality is "bad" and "wrong."

Not sure what your point is here. Anybody that wants to modify your behavior is a "parent" and has your best interests at heart?

You can't use the Bible as an argument when debating people who don't fully believe in the Bible as the the true Word of God.

I still don't believe in the Bible the way you do, so your point is still invalid in this arena. As I don't believe that God is sending people to hell for crap like loving one person who happens to also have a penis, and I see no other negatives to me personally or society at large for their relationship, I therefore see absolutely no reason to discriminate against them.



Not particularly so, by the standards of debates on this forum. :lol:

Quote by Paul (fka Saul) in his letters to the Corinthians, not a quote by Jesus. Paul never even met Jesus and converted to Christianity after Jesus was long gone. Anything he says is secondhand at best.

See also...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

Then you would be basing your morality of gay sex on an individual basis? You say that adultry is immoral because it hurts your wife(emotionally). What if your wife never finds out, is it then moral because she was not hurt? How many gay people have supportive parents? If their actions hurt their parents(emotionally) then does it become immoral? Most importantly you are forgetting about God. It goes against God which would be hurting his feelings.

You have made it clear that you do not believe the bible is the word of God and that's fine. I am not trying to sway your view. The original conversation started with God which takes you into the bible, that I believe. So that's where I am coming from when I post. We are having a discussion and the last thing I want is to make anyone upset. So I am fine with continuing this as long as we keep it a discussion and it doesn't turn into a shouting match.

I would disagree that it was poorly written but, I would add that it has been poorly translated and twisted by many people. There are many versions and translations resulting in much false information.

What you are referring to is called the Platinum rule. I don't understand what you would do differently between the rules unless a person wanted you to treat them like a king and kiss their ring.

I agree that man has made many advancements but there are still extreme problems that man has yet to solve. 16,000 children die every day because of hunger. If this society was so great that statistic would not be there. There is enough food to feed those people but due to politics and government it can't reach them. Who is here to protect them?

I agree about not forcing belief or morality on another individual. However, I feel that there is nothing wrong with talking about beliefs like we are doing now. I personally feel that mankind ruled under a single government with a single set of rules for everyone would work much better than everyone just choosing their own definition of right and wrong. This is what the bible teaches and I do believe it. Again, this is just what I believe.

Medically speaking your rectum is designed as a 1 way street. It is not designed for things to be inserted into it. I think a lot of you just like to argue. "uh well a round peg fits into a round hole huh huh huh"

Natural means found in nature. A toilet plunger is designed to unclog a toilet but I guess you could use it as a soup bowl if you wanted to. You could also use a level as a hammer but it would be the unnatural use of that object.

I have never once mentioned hell. You are assuming what I believe rather than reading what I say I believe. I do not believe in a hell of everlasting burning torment for bad people. I am not telling people how to live their lives. I am telling people what the bible says and that I believe the bible. What you believe is your choice. I have said numerous times they are MY beliefs.

I don't feel that I have been arguing or trying to force my beliefs on others. I am sorry if that is what I have done.

Uh, anal sex isn't a strictly a homosexual activity.

If things continue the way we are going, that may happen, but the rules will be from the Qur’an, not the bible. :(

In nature you will find lots of Homo Sapiens - hairless (relatively that is) apelike m-f'ers. And so by definition anything they do and/or produce is natural, right? They do the kewlest things... like anal sex, oil spills, and VX nerve agent! Ooh, ooh... that thing with the atoms too!

Very true Nick. Did I say that heterosexual anal sex was any different? No. We have been talking about anal sex in general not "ghey anal sex vs. straight anal sex".

Exactly, and the important words are "anal sex" not "homosexual sex". Homosexual sex isn't inherently bad for the body, but certain sexual acts can be potentially dangerous for any two parties (although it's very easy to minimize the risks).

Right. Sorry. I did not mean to imply that only homosexuals having anal sex was potentially dangerous. I guess I just ran with the assumption that when most people hear the term "homosexual sex" we would be referring to anal sex. I was not very clear.

Okay, I'm raising the bid to $40. Surely since this topic is so important to Christianity, that Jesus (aka. <whatever they actually called him in his time>) should have spoken frequently and in great detail about the subject and how vile it is.

Also will give $.01 for every Jesus quote about feeding the poor.

He isn't quoting the bible to support "anti-homosexual views". His views (like mine) are based on the scriptures because we believe it to be the word of God, no matter what anyone else thinks. You also misunderstand our point...we are not trying to tell people how to live their lives, nor are we trying to forceably impose our morals onto other people who aren't interested in them. That is not our job. Besides, it's not "our way" that we talk to people about...it is God's way. If you have a problem with that, take it up with Him when you see Him...don't shoot the messenger just because you disagree with the message.

Your challenge has a built-in fault that I will try to explain. No, you will not find a direct quote from Jesus in the gospel accounts saying anything about homsexuality...so don't worry, you won't have to fork out the $40. However, Jesus DID comment on sexual immorality, which would have included homosexual behavior according to the Torah (by the way, Jesus was a Torah-observant jew), so by His staement, Jesus was in fact condemning any activity that fell under "sexual immorality" as defined in the Old Testament. Here are the verses...

Matthew 15:18-20...18But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' 19For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.' " Show me how "sexual immorality" did NOT include homosexual behavior as part of it's definition.

The other thing to consider is that Jesus WAS God in the flesh, as shown by John 1:1-14 and many other passages. Jesus himself made the claim so often that it was the primary reason the Jews tried to have Him killed (John 10:33 "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.") Jesus did not deny this charge, nor the claim from Thomas (John 20:28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!") So, based on this information...ANYtime the bible spoke out about homosexuality (or any other sin for that matter), it was in fact Jesus speaking. When God laid down the Law on Mt. Sinai, it was Jesus who was speaking to Moses...God and Jesus are the same.

How about that $40?

Actually, they can tell me anything they want to...it's a free country. I would expect them to give me some reasons for what they believe though, if they want to try to convince me of their point of view. Just a point of fact, I do not spend my time running around telling gay people that they are sinners. If you go back to my original post, you will see that what I had an issue with was Sperry's "god hates gays" comment. Do I think that homosexual behavior is a sin? yes I do, because my God says it is a sin. How does that make me to have a "ridiculous intolerant attitude"? Did it occur to you that, as a Christian, I am supposed to be intolerant of sin? Would you speak out against theft, lying, adultery, rape, murder? Of course you would. Are they sinful behaviors? yes they are. God included homosexuality in with that list of sins (along with many others). I am not going to stop seeing homosexuality as a sin just because many people don't agree with me (or God for that matter). You dissagree with my beliefs...doesn't that make YOU intolerant?

The subject of homosexuality is a really really small part in the bible. Normally I would wonder how something so small got blown this much out of proportion but, this is completely "natural" for seccs. We all have different beliefs and that is our right. Even though Highdesertsuby and myself have the same belief on this subject, I do not share all of the beliefs he does. Namely his belief of Jesus and God being the same. It wouldn't be right for me to criticize his belief anymore than it would be for him to criticize mine. We are all imperfect and have no right to judge one another.

No, that doesn't make anyone intolerant. No one has the same beliefs, so if that were true, everyone would be intolerant (including you).

Which was my point exactly...I got accused of being "intolerant" because my views were different. The term "intolerant" gets thrown out into the conversation anytime someone (usually a Christian) presents an opinion or viewpoint that is different from the mainstream. Once again, being called intolerant doesn't bother me, but the double-standard employed by those people doing the name calling is a bit troublesome, and more than a bit hypocritical.

I think life's too short. If you find someone you can connect with during the eyeblink you get, great. I find it unfortunate that people are willing to spend time and effort condemning same-sex relationships.