Yeah, I'd be a hypocrite to deny I answer my phone sometimes while driving, even when I know statistically it can be dangerous.

Another, 'made me laugh'.:)

God I'm sick of this conversation. You can try to justify it all you want by talking about stuff that's more dangerous, or by listing off a bunch of "precautions" you take, or by describing how empty the road is... it still doesn't change the fact that you're breaking a well intentioned law for no reason.

The bottom line is this: street racing is illegal because 99.99% of the time it's unsafe. Sure, an abandoned industrial street at 1 am may actually be just as safe as the track (though I doubt the people there have an ambulance and fire crew on stand-by and helmets for the competitors...) but the law has to draw a line somewhere. And that line has been drawn to disclude competition on public streets, *all* public streets. It's a just law... disregarding it as some macho act of defiance makes you look like a tool. Especially since there are safer, legitimate outlets for speed competition, including the drag strip, autocross, track days, etc. It only takes one little oops to fuck up the rest of your life... what if the guy your racing crashes into you? ...what if you blow the motor and your car burns? ...what if someone thinks your cheating and shoots you over a $50 race?

And for the people that can't resist "proving themselves" when someone revs on them... you're an egotistical idiot. I dial 911 when I see retards like you that attach the speed of your car to your sense of self importance. Remember this: going fast only takes money... and there's always someone out there with more money. You *can't* prove anything about yourself when you race "run what you brung", you can only prove how much money you've spent. ...course that sounds exactly like drag racing, which is the lowest form of motorsports. Hell, even monster trucks at least take driving skill.

Grow up. People that actually care about motorsports for the sport rather than for the ego-stroking are tired of you making us look bad.

And finally:

baron =
http://worldroots.com/brigitte/gifs3/redbaron.jpg

barren =
http://www.lee.k12.fl.us/dept/ee/atl...web/barren.jpg

:lol: I did lack judgement actually...in fact I prefer to blame my judgement than my drivng skill. :D

Lions and tigers and bears...oh my. :lol:

wow

I just want to say that none of the silver cars listed at the beginning of this thread are me.My sti's sitting in track trim in the garage, and it's only been on the street while perched on it's trailer. Not Guilty!

I used to enjoy running Virginia City or Mt Rose once in a while, while I never go crazy up there.I just don't enjoy it anymore, It's really unsafe, too many variables out of my control, mostly other drivers...Just ask Kevin. The amount of enjoyment I get out of driving RFR, or any other track is of much greater worth to me.

As far as the Roll Bar thing at RFR...The seccs crew that's been running RFR for over a year now are clearly some of the fastest production (mostly stock) cars that run out there. No one (including ET) have mentioned anything about roll bar rules, but we will see. RFR has been very fortunate with it's safety record thus far, and I know our group has done a great job of staying safe and VERY fast out there.

Im not forcing anyone to do anything. Im just questioning what you have against racing on a public road. Even if there's a 0% chance of you endangering someone else.

I agree with all of you guys when you say its dangerous and that there are inherent risks involved, but it goes the same for the track. Yes, it is an added bonus if ambulances are standing by though.

I dont know, I'll drop the sore spot. And sorry for smart remark. I dont know. I just dont feel anyone should judge somone by whether or not they street race. If someone feels to put their life at a greater risk for 8 seconds, then thats their choice. People do it all the time - snowboarding/skiing, skydiving, cliff jumping, football, gymnastics, track drag racing, road racing, etc. Do you guys do none of these things?

However, I tend to believe I'm not outnumbered on this board when it comes to who street races and who doesn't.

And the legality of it - I bet I'm more legal most of the time than most of the people on this board. Sure I tend to speed sometimes in competition against another motor-vehicle, but I still run smog legal. I have a working CAT and I've never removed a cat and not replaced it with another functioning cat. Most of the people on this board would be fined.

As far as this group of motor enthusiast goes, I have the highest respect for you guys. You're well organized, nationally recognized and have a group of SMART people. Even though you guys play it by the books a little too much, I still like ya. I guess that's why I hang around here even though I'm not really wanted.

And shame on you cody for deleting your post where you questioned my sanity.

I honestly don't remember doing any such thing...but I've been drinking...

You're a smart guy, though those are some very opinionated statements. I would have thought you could have stated something more, professional?

I like to think it's fairly obviously in my posts when I'm wearing my moderator hat, or my opinionated personal hat. That post should be clearly the latter.

For the life of me, I can't understand why people attempt to prove something that's irrelavant in a contest that adds additional risk to something that's already risky.

Anyone that's been around motorsports knows, you will eventually get caught out; you will eventually blow up a motor, you will eventually crash, and you will eventually hurt yourself... all you have to do is drive long enough. When it happens to me, I plan to be wearing the proper safety equipment, on a safe race track, with the necessary people standing by to pull me out of the shit when it hits the fan.

On the street, you're without the additional safety afforded by a proper location. IMO, if you're willing to pile additional risk on to something that's already risky, you are by definition, being stupid. If I told you I'm gonna close my eyes and try to punch you in the face, would you rather I put on a glove or brass knuckels?

You're potentially forcing someone else to deal with the consequences of your mistakes. How many people have been killed or hurt or maybe just lost a care they really cared about because of someone else's decision to have an impromptu street race with the idiot in the next lane who revved on him? If you were to cause death, injury, or maybe something as slight as a dent in someone else's car, how can you justify your actions as safe or appropriate? Worse yet, what if the guy you race because he revved on you is 17 and doesn't know shit about car control yet, and you watch him bury his car into a freeway overpass, and know that he died because you couldn't bear the thought of backing down, or losing face, even though you are the only one who would ever know about it? Anybody who willingly engages in any contest of speed anywhere but a dragstrip or racetrack is willfully ignoring the potential conqequences of his or her actions. In other words, you are described by the scariest word in the US legal system- negligent.

Yes, there are inherent risks involved in taking your street car out to do hot laps on a racetrack. I would even go so far as to say the bad things that could potentially happen are even more likely to occur to any of us than the risks you take when street racing. But there are huge differences between the set of risks we take on the racetrack and the ones we would take by street racing. The chance of death (to anyone potentially involved) or even significant injury, is pretty minor. The risk of damage to our cars is substantial, but I bet that on an individual basis, every active member of this board knows people who have either wrecked a car or had their car damaged by people street racing or otherwise screwing off on public roads, while few, if any of us, have direct knowledge of someone damaging his own or someone else's car during an organized track day. I think the only incidents I know of myself are a few bent wheels and a cracked windshield from off-track excursions, and Nate's Legacy going into the wall on the back straight at Thunder Hill... while he was at a drift event.

Of course we do those things. We all have done and continue to particpate in activities much riskier than our track and autocross activities. That's part of our point- we're not risking much other than the time and money we've invested into our cars on the track. And far more importantly, everyone involved in the activities and sports you listed- everyone!- is involved and aware of their own risk as a participant. How many inoocent bystanders ever died in skydiving or bungee jumping accidents?

Quite wrong. While there's certainly a strong minority of people here who have participated in the occasional impromptu stop light race or freeway race, you could easily count on one hand the people here who still do it, and even fewer who condone it. And I don't think anyone else on the board actively participates in street racing or thinks it's a worthwhile pursuit.

Wow... just wow. Yes, I can't believe that any of us criminals have even dared to suggest that your morals are anything less than saintly. :rolleyes:

Actually, I can't think of anything other than the street racing debate that gets any of us really arguing with you. It's fun having a DSM guy around who knows how to play up to the DSM/Subaru rivalry without getting offended or offending anyone else over it. Nobody is universally lauded on any internet forum of any kind, least of all myself, but I don't think anybody here would feel particularly elated if you decided not to post here anymore. Don't confuse dissent with dislike, especially on the intarweb.

We all know the real reason we don't want people talking about street racing over here. Just spend two minutes over at the street racing forums and anyone will realize we don't want those kind of people here.

That is the beauty of driving the wagon, not many people challenge you on the street, but I do admit, I did smoke the kid in the mR2 because he thought he was a badass.

I haven't tried the autox or track racing, Drag Racing very fast in a straight line has been what our family has done for years. Still to this day you will find two of my uncles out at on every race day they can get.

I enjoy driving this car so much though, the last thing I would want to do is endanger myself or my family racing on the street, where its not controlled, and the real problem is the other drivers.

I see so many of you guys around, I just don't know who is who :lol:

There is no way to have a 0% chance of endangering others on any public road. You cannot know, without a doubt, that there isn't some pedestrian or vehicle in the vicinity of your vehicle. I don't care if it's 3 AM on the most isolated, industrial road in town, you cannot know for sure that no one else is around. This is why street racing is illegal, and why it is such a stupid thing to part in.

I believe you are vastly outnumbered. Everyone I know on this board is a responsible adult who has no desire to increase attention on our vehicles from the police, or worse yet, injure or kill someone else due to our negligence.

This is just asinine. You are comparing the emissions of a vehicle to potentially ending people's lives. If you think it's OK to street race as long as your car passes smog, then you've got a very messed up set of priorities.

2 or 3 could have been me, I've got a silver wrx with a thule ski rack, black subzero rims and greddy exhaust

Re-quoted because Khail makes an excellent point.

Street racing, bad
RFR, good.

HMMMM!

I wasn't going to reply to anything, but I think this is the best said thing yet.

:lol: quoted for comic relief...........keep dream'n :P

Actually, I have an inkling that sp00ln's car would give pretty much any of the STi's on this board a pretty good run... IIRC, his previous car was pretty hooked up before a bunch of his stuff was stolen, and the current one is supposed to be faster, is it not?

I think sp00ln needs to bring that thing out to the autocross school in April, I want a ride. :devil:

Honestly, I don't know how you can hang around most of those tools. I mean you are a smart guy with a nice car (well for a DSM). I still remember when I went out to the meets and most of those guys have no business modifying a car, let alone "racing" it. The level of discourse literally makes my head want to explode.

Ryan's car is fast. Nick could probably take him, but I think he would walk a stock STi pretty easy.

Was nicks HP numbers on pump or race gas? If it was race gas, we could be close on pump.

I dont want to autocross my car, we'll, thats a lie, I do but i just think its way too hard on the car. I need to get another car first before I start doing that to my DSM. I really want to hit up the track in fernley. When will you guys go out there next?

I think Fernley might be done for the winter...but it's soooo fun. You gotta try it. My first time was a month ago.

...and look what happened to your car...

:p

Yah, nobody ever said the track was accident free...but honestly, if you're going to lose control of your vehicle at 100 mph, it's pretty much the best place (aside from a gigantic black top).

Pump, I can't imagine Nick ever having the inclination to run race gas.

Yes it was on 91 CA pump. I have ECUtek with no ability to switch maps so pump it is. If ECUtek ever gets the switchable maps, I will probably get a race map tuned just for yucks.

You know you want a crawford block and a bigger turbo Nick. :p

No! This set up is just fine, thank you............well maybe when the block gets tired, I'll............NO!

Haha, I'm sure one of us will get one eventually. Then perhaps you will change your tune (get it? tune?).

Ummm, it got dirty? And he pried a few rocks out of his wheels?

Those are really nice numbers for pump. I'm looking for about the same... or maybe more after xmas break :)

I've never understood this view, which from what I've seen seems to be pretty common from drag racers. Yes, autocrossing will eat up tires and to a limited extent, brakes. But those are relatively cheap wear items and easily replaceable. It is not particularly abusive to the powertrain, provided you don't launch hard off the start line every run.

Every time you drag race, especially if you use sticky tires, you're putting large impact loads into the powertrain which is extremely hard on the components and wears them out quickly. The powertrain is also the single most expensive and difficult to replace system in the car.

Which of these two activities sounds like it will do the most expensive, permanent damage to the car?

Don't be afraid, because its a DSM. I autocrossed the hell out of the Galant VR-4. I never had any problems... except for that time I almost blew it up, and left oil all over the track.
On second thought don't autocross you'r DSM.

Engineer Humor!

Like LabMonkey said...

Autocross is probably the single most gentle form of motorsports. There are no drag-launches, there are no top speed runs, there are no extended periods of high rpm (unless you don't bother to shift outta 1st :lol: )... Hell, even tire wear is light if you're on properly inflated street tires and smooth behind the wheel. Bascially, autocross is about as hard on your car as a 60 second jaunt around the neighborhood... assuming you drive like a maniac on the street. ;)

The worst thing that might happen is hitting a cone or two... which might be bad if you hit one w/ the FMIC... but cones are usually hit with the front fenders, unless you're MattR, then they tend to get hit by the rear fenders. :lol:

Quoted for truth :lol:

I dunno... I'm of the opinion that autocross is harder on the drivetrain than road racing is. The inputs and demands made of the chassis on a track are less frequent and generally smoother/slower than at an autocross. At least with me behind the wheel, heh. :o Sometimes there are "drag starts" at Solo 2, maybe not a full-on 6000 RPM clutch-dump, but still higher shock loading than a quick street start would have. And if you're forcing the shifter into gears, being very abrupt with clutch takeup, poorly rev-matching downshifts... there's plenty of room for bad things to happen.

Four full-throttle upshifts on the drag strip plus the launch is probably worse on the drivetrain than a whole day of Solo 2, but I still think that in terms of mechanical issues, hot lapping on a track is less stressful on the car.

I never tell people new to autocrossing that it's easy on the car, but I also don't think it's particularly bad. If you have minmal mods (stock classes, or underprepared ST/SP) and something breaks, it's a gray area as far as warranty claims go. You're not an asshole for expecting the dealer to fix what gets broken... but you also can't raise hell if they refuse because you autocrossed IMO. Now, if they just say "oh, you abused the car" in general but don't cite autocross specifically... they're in the wrong. splitting hairs maybe but I think there's an important distinction.

:lol:

Your going to tell me that the load on the car in 100 mph sweepers, over curbs, braking from 130 to 50 two times a lap, topping out 4th and 5th gears down long straights, during 5 thirty-minute track sessions are less hard on a car than 6 sixty-second autocross runs on street tires?

Personally, I don't think autocross or track driving is anywhere near as hard the drive train as drag racing... but track driving puts huge demands on the suspension and especially the brakes that you won't see on an autocross course, simply due to the lower speeds.

I think the momentary lateral forces in autocross match or exceed those on a track. It's not long, sustained forces that break parts (and this applies mostly to the drivetrain of course) but sharp instantaneous forces. Powershifting fro 2nd to 3rd with 200 whp is harder on it than rolling into it on a dyno with 350 whp. Going to the track is much harder on brakes, but not necessarily on tires. I'm not talking about wear and tear that causes you to replace consumables like brake pads, tires, clutches. I mean stuff getting broken. Stripped gears, busted halfshafts, that sort of thing. What breaks a WRX gear faster- a handful of 7000 RPM clutch dumps, or running around RFR at full throttle? On a Solo 2 course, you shift almost as many times as you would during a lap or two on a track. More importantly, you're doing it between 1st and 2nd gear, which means way more torque is going through the drivetrain than at higher speeds. And the average beginner or intermediate autocrosser is less than silky smooth with shifting when they're chasing time.

In terms of engine wear, I don't think either autocross or tracking is particular hard on a motor since you can't hardly shock load the engine without putting yourself bass-ackwards into cones or weeds. As long as you aren't making more power than the engine can physically handle or doing bad things to the engine management at least. In the absence of detonation, and with sufficient cooling, no motorsport is particularly hard on a fresh, well-maintained modern engine.

Absolutely not. Extended high RPM operation seen in actual road racing (or circle track) wears out engines very quickly, wearing bearings, fatiguing the rotating assembly, valve springs, valve seats, etc. etc. In any real track car that can develop appreciable lateral grip, oil starvation during sustained cornering forces and heat load on the components also become real issues. This is why you see adaptations like dry sump systems, oil squirters to cool the valve springs, etc. - so that racing engines will survive longer.

Okay, engines wear faster on the track. But I stand by my statement that transmissions, halfshafts, and diffs take a much more severe beating at autocross.