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I'm not sure on the oil pump question, but on the water pipes the safe choice would be to route them back together. It may be safe to cap them off, but it's 100% certain it's not going to be a reliability issue down the road if you let the coolant circulate through them. There could be a passage on the return side that wouldn't get fed if you capped them off, even though it's unlikely and not very logical.
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I second kevin on the coolant lines. I have the throttle body by passed on my car. I just used a hose to go around the TB. Not to sure on the other coolant line. Like kevin said, safer to just route them back into the system.
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The factory Subaru oil cooler kits (as used on spec C's etc etc) replace the heat exchanger under the oil filter, my initial thoughts are there is a reason those ports are not used on the oil pump although I confess to not knowing why nor having ever used them before.
Speaking of oil pumps, Scott concidering oiling issues have plagued you I think you should contact Japanparts.com regarding the 12mm pump they have been importing. I tested one on one of our cars and found the increase in oil pressure and ability to maintain more as the rpms raised a worthwhile benifit. The pump cost us $165 shipped from Japan and we simply shimmed the relief valve as we have always. As for the coolant lines we typically route them back to themselves, originally we tried capping things and such on the L and all we did is create a nightmare as far as bleeding and maintaining the system goes, we also tried some other funky stuff so hard to point any fingers as why the whole setup we tested sucked so badly. If I can help any further drop me a line offline and I'll help in anyway I can. Mike |
Thanks for the info Mike!
Oh, what's the P/N on that oil pump from JapanParts.com? Is it 113-037-15010? |
Scott,
Order stuff through Graham on NASIOC and you'll get 10% off japanparts.com orders. I'm aobut to order some dash bits (probably a few weeks off), but they're supposed to ship pretty quickly (like 10-15 days). |
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Here's a copy of the thread I started on NASIOC... anyone here have some suggestions?
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...php?p=20496591 Quote:
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I think you can salvage most of your stuff.
Turbo can be repaired for probably way less than new. A new set of rings for the pistons should be all they need assuming the tops aren't beat up. The scratches on the skirts should be no big deal as long as the ring groves are good Somebody who knows more would have to gauge the bore scratches. They may come out with a light hone. Otherwise cylinders aren't that expensive. Clean up the races, Replace the bearings and move on. Unless a short block is stupid cheap, that should be the cheapest way to go and should last 75-125% as long as any other rebuilt short block. :) |
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If I hone the cylinders more than .05mm the car will have a bunch of blow-by unless I can get some oversized rings. And even then, there will be a bunch of wobble to the pistons. I'll end up with pretty bad compression, which may or may not be a big deal. However, "cylinders are not that expensive" is not at all true. Sleeving the block will likely cost more than a new shortblock. Cleaning up the races and replacing the bearings isn't simple. It means getting the crank cut on all 4 cylinder races, getting custom sized bearings, and potentially replacing all the rods. At that cost, paying the $1500 for a new crank is probably cheaper. A shortblock with forged pistons for $2500 sounds damn cheap if we're talking $2000 for sleeves and $1500 for a crank, and $200 for a rod. Plus $200 for bearings. Then paying to assemble it all. |
The grooves on the piston skirts shouldn't be a problem so, lik Dean said, if the tops are okay then keep them and reuse. So chances are, a new shortblock is your easiest route, whether you bore it for your forged pistons or not. Maybe just get a stock shortblock and keep the pistons around for if/when it needs another rebuild?
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OK, junk the turbo then. Don't post pictures of it asking for opinions? :P
I believe honing is in the .005 range, not the .05, but may be wrong. I didn't say it was simple, but I would think once over bearings would be common, not "custom" and relatively inexpensive, and that next bearing size is what you have the shaft cut to, but what do I know. Seņor Cheap Bastard is all about whichever is cheaper. Is that $2500 for a new short or somebody else's busted up rebuild? If it is new and rebuilding yours is anywhere near $2K, I'd agree to go with new. If yours is $1500, or the $2500 is for a rebuild, that becomes a tougher choice. There is also the psychological piece. If you rebuild your's, you either have a known quantity or a reason to be totally pissed at yourself for not getting a new one when it breaks again, but who says a new one will be any better??? |
I wasn't posting pictures of the turbo other than to illustrate the junk the motor ingested. I guess I could have just as easily posted the video of your car throwing the dirt at me. :P
$2500 should be for a brand new block, with new forged pistons, but no bearings. If light honing is enough to clear up the scoring in the cylinders then that would be cheaper, my concern is whether or not that would be enough. I guess the only way to find out is to bring it to a machine shop. Same goes with the crank. All that machine work adds up, plus the cost of assembly. Eventually it's cheaper just to get an assembled brand new shortblock. |
I think the real question should be why did this happen (the oiling problem, not the ingested gravel). What are you going to change with your oil system to make sure the next block doesn't blow up?
And fwiw, I vote for a new shortblock, already assembled by someone else. Even a stock STi shortblock for $1800 should last a while. |
I vote new shortblock and use the excess funds for a dry sump system...
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Plus, my oil temp and pressure fittings were in the remote filter block, so I never had the actual oil pressure in the engine on my gauges... so even when I had good readings, it's likely I was starving the motor of oil. So, on the new motor, I'm going with a sandwich adapter and as short as possible on the hoses, plus I've got a 12mm JDM oil pump on order that I'll shim, and I'm taking Mike W. up on his offer to source me a Cosworth oil pan. So, the oiling issues should be as solved as possible w/o inventing a dry sump setup (not even the rally teams need to dry sump the boxer motor, they should be very resilient to starvation if you've got a properly baffled oil pan). And with the fixed oiling issues, I bet my cooling problems go away too... since the heat I was seeing was only when I was turning the car hard. I could floor it on every straight and not over-heat, but as soon as I was going all out in the corners, that's when the oil temps would jump. |
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FWIW Gruppe-S has built motors. I have no idea if these are any good, but the prices seem reasonable:
http://www.gruppe-s.com/Subaru/submotors.htm I would polish or turn your crank, get new bearings if needed, reuse the pistons and just have your block lightly rehoned. New rod and rings too I guess. The bores should be good enough. I can get them measured if need-be at the machine shop I use for all my KSTech machine work. |
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Mike |
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A shimmed oil pump with a decent oil pan and baffle setup will work, we use that very setup.
I think if the Subaru team had to endure high rpms with the g's you see on track they would use a dry sump but based on most usable power being well south of 6k on their cars I can imagine there is no gain to using the dry sump. They do run a pretty trick oil pan setup due in part to ground clearance and the setup of the manifold they use (I have one here and it's sick!) Mike |
Well, the block, crank, rods and pistons are dropped off at AIMS. When one of the machinists gets a chance to look at it, they'll give me a call and let me know what's repairable.
The good news is they've been doing a lot of Subaru work lately, so this shouldn't be a job out of left-field for them. Though the service writer had a hard time understanding me when I was telling him the block was already bored to 100mm. "The cylinders are already at 100mm, so I don't think they can be bored further." "They're 1mm over?" "No they're at 100mm." "No, people usually say they're 1mm over, or 040." "Uh, no, the diameter of the pistons is 100mm, i.e. 10cm." I wish I remember the stock bore (99.5mm apparently) so I could have told him they're .020 over. |
Hopefully he's not the one working on the motor for you, you might have some serious piston bobble if he goes 100mm over :)
Mike |
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No, he's just the guy answering the phone, scheduling the jobs, and shoving my box of engine bits on the correct shelf. (I hope!) But a 100mm over would be a 22.3L block! :eek: :lol: |
Your pistons would dance like Hula-dolls...nice.
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Imagine the turbo response and spool up on that motor!
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Hey Scott, still waiting on that list from you to my work email.
Mike |
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Mike |
Welp, my 12mm JDP oil pump showed up. :)
Now, if only AIMS would get back to me about the feasibility of my motor, I could get on with rebuilding or buying a new short block. |
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Awe yeah...
Just heard from AIMS. Cylinders were honed and came out fine, pistons look great, the guy even said the rings are probably fine, but I'm replacing them just in case. They're not 100% sure they can save the crank, just 'cause they're a hard to work on, but the guy said they'd try it for free... if they can't save it, it's no charge. They're going to source me some rings and new bearings, and I've got to get a replacement rod. Then they're going to take care of the short-block assembly for me. Once the short-block is done, I'll probably just haul the heads down there to get 'em hot-tanked, have the lash checked, and get the long-block assembled so I don't have to deal with that sort of work in my dirty-ass garage. I can deal w/ all the manifolds, plumbing, accessories, timing gear, etc myself and get that thing back in the car for break-in. |
Nice....That's great news.
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I'm glad most of the parts are going to be reusable and their position on the crank makes me like them as a company.
If they are going to do the heads and put the long block together, I would think they should do the timing gears as well. :) I was going to suggest some Total Seal Gapless rings, but apparently they don't make any for late model Subarus. We used those on the Renault R8 engine we rebuilt and they were amazing. Oh well. |
No rings for "late model Subarus?" Shouldn't it just be 100mm piston rings with a specified width/material?
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http://www.totalseal.com/TechPage.as...plessPistRings They would help Scott's Blow By issue as well even with his new catch can system. They seal so well that the R8 engine we did would occasionally refire without the starter after 5-10 minutes of sitting if a piston was in the right place the when you turned on the ignition. Probably wouldn't happen on a FI engine, but pretty amazing. |
They make them for 3.940 and 3.935" bores.
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Also... anyone else notice they just joined the board? Hi Robert! :cool: |
*cough*suckup*cough*
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I've done a couple of dyno break ins on fresh motors.
So far, none use oil. Although one did develope DSM itis....but I did not build the motor. BTW...I got a few STi cranks laying around. |
I guess I should have posted an update!
AIMS was able to save my crank, plus the cylinders were fine after honing. I picked up the assembled shortblock earlier this week, and dropped off my heads for cleaning and inspection. So, I should have them back early next week. Also my Cosworth oil pan and baffle showed up today from GST (thanks Mike!)... that pan is the pimp shit! And last week I picked up MikeK's FP Green, so I've got the turbo damage covered. So, next week I should have just about everything I need, save a new timing belt and probably some misc. gaskets, to put this motor back together. |
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To be honest, I may not have the opportunity to do a real gentle, long break in simply because of time constraints and that whole "it's not street legal" issue meaning I need to find track time to break it in. Paul, I may be contacting you for some dyno time and some help cranking the motor over for the first time, since I've never done that sort of thing myself before. |
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So, I'm finally making progress in the right direction. Put all the plugs into the shortblock, installed the oil pump, water pump (12mm JDP pump that I added a shim to for a bump in oil pressure), cosworth oil baffle and oil pan, oil/water heat exchanger, and did some basic cleanup.
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ummm.... I would ditch the cork oil pan gasket.... Tha thing will leak like mad!!! I have a tube of fujibond if ya want it. everything elso looks good though.. Good luck, and take your time dude, you don't want to do that job twice!
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