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-   -   Hey Art: Track Day insurance? (https://www.seccs.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1030)

sperry 2004-02-02 11:08 AM

Hey Art: Track Day insurance?
 
Hey Art, what's the deal with insurance coverage for track days? There's a rumor floating about that as long as the event is a "driving school" and not a "competition" that some ins. companies will cover an on track incident?

Any truth to this? And regardless, we're covered for liability on track, right?

MikeSTI 2004-02-02 11:28 AM

just get off the track before you place your claim and say it happened in the parking lot :lol: :lol:

ArthurS 2004-02-02 12:00 PM

There is some truth to that. As long as you are not participating in a designated 'race event' then the insurance company will cover you.

I'll go fetch the exact wording for this exception.

sperry 2004-02-02 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeSTI
just get off the track before you place your claim and say it happened in the parking lot :lol: :lol:

:lol: "Um, you say you rolled it 9 times at 100mph in the parking lot?"

STIwish 2004-02-02 12:41 PM

It could happen.... if you were a chick on her cell phone.

sperry 2004-02-02 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by STIwish
It could happen.... if you were a chick on her cell phone.

I still can't believe that shit happened... :lol: How are you gonna try to talk on the phone while racing a go-kart!!?!? I swear, Dodge is gonna have to just give her a Durango w/ 3 kids and a dog in the back just for "livin' the lifestyle". :lol:

MikeSTI 2004-02-02 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by STIwish
It could happen.... if you were a chick on her cell phone.

:lol: :lol: becuase this drive is for fun I would really hope you dont get so crazy you flip your car 10 times but maybe hit the wall or a pole it could have happened in the parkinglot :lol: :lol:

STIwish 2004-02-02 12:46 PM

no no... not Durango dammit... H2!!! Soccer mom of the future... one of these days she is probably going to try and jump a statue!

sperry 2004-02-02 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeSTI
Quote:

Originally Posted by STIwish
It could happen.... if you were a chick on her cell phone.

:lol: :lol: becuase this drive is for fun I would really hope you dont get so crazy you flip your car 10 times but maybe hit the wall or a pole it could have happened in the parkinglot :lol: :lol:

My only concern is that we'll get someone out on track in the novice class with something to prove that feels like since there's no passing 'cept on the straights he's gotta tail me retarded close in the corners at 10/10ths, while I'm at 6/10ths learning how to drive better, who loses control and tanks me from behind due to general stupidity.

Unless there's insurance coverage the only way I could get paid for the damage would be to take it out of his hide in the parking lot.

ArthurS 2004-02-02 01:05 PM

I am having our claims department fax me over the exact wording concerning this issue. So that may be a few hours :lol:

ZER026D 2004-02-02 04:25 PM

NIce I am going to want this if we can get it.

sperry 2004-02-02 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZER026D
NIce I am going to want this if we can get it.

Hopefully it's not something we have to sign up for specially... it should just be that our standard policy applies when we're on course, as long as it's not competition. 'Course that whole competiton thing means that AutoX isn't covered, even tho that seems like lower risk than a driving school day to me!

ArthurS 2004-02-02 04:31 PM

Well, so far I got this from one of our claims offices -

Per Anthony @ 2:15 PM on 2/2/2004 from Las Vegas Claims Department:

He said that it states nowhere in the policy that you cannot participate in a racing event. Per page 2 in the policy titled 'When and Where The Policy Applies', we are covered even if a sanctioned racing event or even a 'pratice' event.

As stated - "Your policy applies only during the policy period. During this time, it applies to losses to the auto, accidents and occurrences within the United States of America, its territories or possessions or Canada, or between their ports. This policy period is shown on the Policy Declarations"

He said because of this clause and the fact that racing is not mentioned anywhere else in the policy, your car would be covered on the track for all occurences because it is located in the United States as stated above.

I am double checking everything because I would hate to go on one persons thoughts. I have a call into our southwest division claims office manager to give me the final word.

sperry 2004-02-02 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArthurS
Well, so far I got this from one of our claims offices -

Per Anthony @ 2:15 PM on 2/2/2004 from Las Vegas Claims Department:

He said that it states nowhere in the policy that you cannot participate in a racing event. Per page 2 in the policy titled 'When and Where The Policy Applies', we are covered even if a sanctioned racing event or even a 'pratice' event.

As stated - "Your policy applies only during the policy period. During this time, it applies to losses to the auto, accidents and occurrences within the United States of America, its territories or possessions or Canada, or between their ports. This policy period is shown on the Policy Declarations"

He said because of this clause and the fact that racing is not mentioned anywhere else in the policy, your car would be covered on the track for all occurences because it is located in the United States as stated above.

I am double checking everything because I would hate to go on one persons thoughts. I have a call into our southwest division claims office manager to give me the final word.

Wow! So far you're telling me that I'm covered even if I'm racing!? Like I could enter my car in a USTCC and get rolled by Gary sheehan at Reno-Fernely (sorry Gary ;)) and you guys would pay to have my car fixed or replaced?!

Sounds too good to be true!

AtomicLabMonkey 2004-02-02 04:43 PM

That's interesting. So in 5 years when my car is gutted, has a rollcage, slicks & a race motor in it the insurance will cover my loss when a bonehead punts me into the wall in T-6 at Seca? :lol:

sperry 2004-02-02 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtomicLabMonkey
That's interesting. So in 5 years when my car is gutted, has a rollcage, slicks & a race motor in it the insurance will cover my loss when a bonehead punts me into the wall in T-6 at Seca? :lol:

Yep, you'll get $780, the going rate for a '95 Mustang GT with 200k miles on it in 2010. :P

AtomicLabMonkey 2004-02-02 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sperry
Yep, you'll get $780, the going rate for a '95 Mustang GT with 200k miles on it in 2010. :P

That's a whole lot better than $0. :lol:

sperry 2004-02-02 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtomicLabMonkey
Quote:

Originally Posted by sperry
Yep, you'll get $780, the going rate for a '95 Mustang GT with 200k miles on it in 2010. :P

That's a whole lot better than $0. :lol:

But doesn't get you much closer to having a track car ready to race anytime soon.

ArthurS 2004-02-02 05:04 PM

Well, first your car has to be street-legal. I don't know if what you are planning on doing to the 'Stang will still allow it to be street-legal. your insurance company will sure as heck not insure a non-street legal vehicle.

Scott, it does seem to good to be true. That why I am getting the final word from the Manager at the Southwest claims office. I am quoting that claims rep (Anthony), but not going to live by it yet. I will double check for sure. But so far, as long as something is not excluded, then it is included. and I cannot find a single thing about racing in the policy.

MikeSTI 2004-02-02 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArthurS
Well, first your car has to be street-legal. I don't know if what you are planning on doing to the 'Stang will still allow it to be street-legal. your insurance company will sure as heck not insure a non-street legal vehicle.

Scott, it does seem to good to be true. That why I am getting the final word from the Manager at the Southwest claims office. I am quoting that claims rep (Anthony), but not going to live by it yet. I will double check for sure. But so far, as long as something is not excluded, then it is included. and I cannot find a single thing about racing in the policy.

your looking for the wrong wording.......its not going to exclude racing but that its not a road way maintained by the government

MattR 2004-02-02 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeSTI
your looking for the wrong wording.......its not going to exclude racing but that its not a road way maintained by the government


I think i understand what you're saying, but with that said,
neither are parking lots and private roads, and they're covered,

ArthurS 2004-02-02 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeSTI
Quote:

Originally Posted by ArthurS
Well, first your car has to be street-legal. I don't know if what you are planning on doing to the 'Stang will still allow it to be street-legal. your insurance company will sure as heck not insure a non-street legal vehicle.

Scott, it does seem to good to be true. That why I am getting the final word from the Manager at the Southwest claims office. I am quoting that claims rep (Anthony), but not going to live by it yet. I will double check for sure. But so far, as long as something is not excluded, then it is included. and I cannot find a single thing about racing in the policy.

your looking for the wrong wording.......its not going to exclude racing but that its not a road way maintained by the government

There are many private roads not maintaned by the government. Wal-Mart parking lots, dirt roads to your ranch estate, the race track, etc etc...

And I know for sure you are covered on any private road. So, if you get slamed into in a Wal-Mart parking lot, you aren't insured? Yes you are. Thankfully.

MikeSTI 2004-02-02 06:00 PM

and if your sue happy you could go after Wal-Mart for not having a trafic addtendant to make sure everyone was safe in there parking lot sence it would be there liability right?

ArthurS 2004-02-02 06:52 PM

You can sue for anything nowadays. But I don't think its Wal-Marts Liabilty to make sure people drive safe as long as they have there stop signs in the right spots and stuff. But who knows?!?

tysonK 2004-02-02 06:59 PM

I'm guessing Wal-Mart has mean ass lawyers. Plus they have more money than god and could keep you in courts forever as the old saying goes...

You better hope your case is cut and dry, if you were to sue WALLSMART.

MikeSTI 2004-02-02 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArthurS
You can sue for anything nowadays. But I don't think its Wal-Marts Liabilty to make sure people drive safe as long as they have there stop signs in the right spots and stuff. But who knows?!?

what i was getting at is exactly what Art said they have signs in the right spots and stuff a track has no signs and every track i've ever seen has you sign a release of liability if anything happens which is problly the auto inserences little loop hole......they have lots of money too

ArthurS 2004-02-02 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeSTI
Quote:

Originally Posted by ArthurS
You can sue for anything nowadays. But I don't think its Wal-Marts Liabilty to make sure people drive safe as long as they have there stop signs in the right spots and stuff. But who knows?!?

what i was getting at is exactly what Art said they have signs in the right spots and stuff a track has no signs and every track i've ever seen has you sign a release of liability if anything happens which is problly the auto inserences little loop hole......they have lots of money too

Well, the nice part about insurance, if they don't exclude it then it is included. no matter what. they can't say 'opps we forgot to put that in there'.

There is also insurance that is strictly for racing events. I believe SCCA offers some type of coverage. Basically the difference is the liabilty limits. You can get a racing policy that has over 1 mil for liabilty for pretty cheap. Your typical auto policy has 100,000 per person/300,000 per accident. That may not be enough during a race event when your car rolls into the crowd and hurts 7 people. So some people go that route when racing or go the route of getting a umbrella policy which also puts a million over your head (but again we don't know for sure if racing is aloud under a umbrella policy).

The head manager is giving me the exact definitions and wording tomorrow. Ill know for sure by then.

MattR 2004-02-02 08:34 PM

Just remember, when asking about it, don't use the old "My friends are wondering if they can race under their insurance coverage" line, or we might get black listed or something :lol:

ArthurS 2004-02-03 12:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MattR
Just remember, when asking about it, don't use the old "My friends are wondering if they can race under their insurance coverage" line, or we might get black listed or something :lol:

Lol. Actually I said that a client emailed me asking if he was covered on a upcoming driving school event. I never mentioned names and I asked to know the exact wording and definitions behind any reasoning. First claims rep I asked here in Reno has been in claims for 14 years and didn't know the answer. So I called Las vegas claims office (Bigger) and I got the answer I have as of now. It seemed to good, so I called the manager at SW Claims office to get the final answer. Find out tomorrow I hope.

ZER026D 2004-02-03 02:01 PM

Sweet

dknv 2004-02-04 12:30 PM

any updates? I'd be really surprised :shock: with the bigger insurance companies, if there isn't an exclusion related to high-speed auto events, such as a track day. One loophole may be for events that are labeled as 'driver education'.

ArthurS 2004-02-04 12:39 PM

Also waiting for the manager to call me back. I placed another call in today. Hopefully by this afternoon.

ArthurS 2004-02-09 10:02 AM

UPDATE
 
So I have found out this morning that the news was to good to be true. I have gotten written word from a manager from the SW division of insurance. He had mentioned that this is the exception for Allstate and should be the same for almost every other insurance company. They changed the rules last year and have since placed a endorsment onto the automobile policy. I will listed exactly how it reads in the new reply.

ArthurS 2004-02-09 10:15 AM

Allstate Automobile Policy Exclusions in relation to racing. This was a Nevada Amendatory Endorsement (meaning most companies followed with the same endorsement to their own automobile policies).

Quote:

Part 1, Automobile Liabilty Insurance Coverages AA and BB is amended as follows:

C. Under Exclusions - What is not covered, the following is added:

bodily injury or property damage arising out of the participation in any prearranged, organized, or spontaneous:
a.) racing contest;
b.) speed contest; or
c.) use of an auto at a track or course designed or used for racing or high performance driving; or in practice or preparation for any contest or use of this type.

Quote:

Part 2, Automobile Medical Payments Coverages CC is amended as follows:

B. Under Exclusions - What is not covered, the following is added:

6. any person arising out of the participation in any prearranged, organized, or spontaneous:
a.) racing contest;
b.) speed contest; or
c.) use of an auto at a track or course designed or used for racing or high performance driving; or in practice or preparation for any contest or use of this type.

Quote:

Part 3, Automobile Death Indemnity Insurance Coverages CM is amended as follows:

5. Under Exclusions - What is not covered, the following is added:

resulting from injury sustained by any person arising out of the participation in any prearranged, organized, or spontaneous:
a.) racing contest;
b.) speed contest; or
c.) use of an auto at a track or course designed or used for racing or high performance driving; or in practice or preparation for any contest or use of this type.

Quote:

Part 4, Automobile Disabilty Income Protection Coverages CW is amended as follows:

5. Under Exclusions - What is not covered, the following is added:

resulting from injury sustained by any person arising out of the participation in any prearranged, organized, or spontaneous:
a.) racing contest;
b.) speed contest; or
c.) use of an auto at a track or course designed or used for racing or high performance driving; or in practice or preparation for any contest or use of this type.

Quote:

Part 5, Uninsured Motorist Coverage SS is amended as follows:

Under Exclusions - What is not covered, the following is added:

bodily injury or property damage arising out of the participation in any prearranged, organized, or spontaneous:
a.) racing contest;
b.) speed contest; or
c.) use of an auto at a track or course designed or used for racing or high performance driving; or in practice or preparation for any contest or use of this type.

Quote:

Part 6, Protection Against Loss To The Auto is amended as follows:

B. Under Exclusions - What is not covered, the following is added:

loss or damage arising out of the participation in any prearranged, organized, or spontaneous:
a.) racing contest;
b.) speed contest; or
c.) use of an auto at a track or course designed or used for racing or high performance driving; or in practice or preparation for any contest or use of this type.

ArthurS 2004-02-09 10:20 AM

Basically, you are not covered for a damn thing if you are doing any of the things mentioned above. speed contest, racing contest, or anything that is done on a track. So driving schools, driver training (unless done by the DMV), or practice events are not covered.

This means no Liabilty, Medical, Uninsured motorist, Death Indemnity, Disabilty Income, or Comprehensive or Collision losses will be covered.

And when it comes to the street-racing thread thats going on, if you read the line that says "....arising out of participation in any prearranged, organized, or SPONTANEOUS:" This meaning that if the insurance company finds out you are filing a claim that was related to speed-contest or street racing, they DO NOT have to pay out on the claim. Even if it is a Bodily Injury claim.

sperry 2004-02-09 10:31 AM

Well that sucks. My rates go up and my coverage goes down. :x

What kind of options do we have then for track insurance?

ArthurS 2004-02-09 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sperry
Well that sucks. My rates go up and my coverage goes down. :x

What kind of options do we have then for track insurance?



As for Bodily Injury and Property damage, SCCA offers coverage when becoming a member. As for your vehicle, I have no idea as of right now. I will look into it more today to see if a brokerage company has anything to offer.

As for the rates going up. As of December 4th, 2003, WRX rates went up slightly amoung many other vehicles. Mine went up 15.00$ per month.

Causes: Age of new drivers driving WRX's, collison claims associated with WRX's, amount of tickets of drivers with WRX's, liabilty losses associated with WRX's. Since they have been out for a few years now, insurance companies have gathered all te data they need to raise the rate. :x

sperry 2004-02-09 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArthurS
Quote:

Originally Posted by sperry
Well that sucks. My rates go up and my coverage goes down. :x

What kind of options do we have then for track insurance?

As for Bodily Injury and Property damage, SCCA offers coverage when becoming a member. As for your vehicle, I have no idea as of right now. I will look into it more today to see if a brokerage company has anything to offer.

I'm pretty sure the SCCA coverage is only for SCCA events. So, if I get hurt at Buttonwillow, I'm boned... unless my health insurance from IGT coveres it...?

ArthurS 2004-02-09 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sperry

I'm pretty sure the SCCA coverage is only for SCCA events. So, if I get hurt at Buttonwillow, I'm boned... unless my health insurance from IGT coveres it...?

I would definatly look into that. I have 2 health plans, one is a dedicated Accident policy which I believe should cover me, but still not sure. I have to place some more calls today.

Dean 2004-02-09 11:10 AM

My exclusions did not read quite as striclty, but I need to see if there have been any updates recently. Do you know when this exclusion was put in place?

ArthurS 2004-02-09 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dean
My exclusions did not read quite as striclty, but I need to see if there have been any updates recently. Do you know when this exclusion was put in place?

I do not know when these took place exactly. The gentlemen had mentioned last year. That could mean February or even December. I will call hi back and find out. The sheets he had sent me are titles with 'Nevada Amendatory Endorsement - AU1887-4'.

MikeSTI 2004-02-09 12:01 PM

This info guys might also get you thinking about all those ride-a-longs.....if somthing happens and you have a passenger bad things could happen :shock:

ArthurS 2004-02-09 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeSTI
This info guys might also get you thinking about all those ride-a-longs.....if somthing happens and you have a passenger bad things could happen :shock:

Good point unless it is at a SCCA event in which SCCA has bodily injury liabilty for members. This would cover a passengers injuries. As for buttonwillow, Mike is right. Without proper BI coverage, your passenger's injuries would also be in your hands.

MikeSTI 2004-02-09 12:42 PM

Thats it time to print and noterize sig's from anyone who wishes to ride in my car thats it is at there own risk :twisted:

ArthurS 2004-02-09 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeSTI
Thats it time to print and noterize sig's from anyone who wishes to ride in my car thats it is at there own risk :twisted:

I am a Notary Public also. So I can help you Mike.

sperry 2004-02-09 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArthurS
Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeSTI
Thats it time to print and noterize sig's from anyone who wishes to ride in my car thats it is at there own risk :twisted:

I am a Notary Public also. So I can help you Mike.

Yeah well, I'm a Notary Private. So I'm pretty much useless.

ArthurS 2004-02-09 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sperry
Yeah well, I'm a Notary Private. So I'm pretty much useless.

Yep. :P

MattR 2004-02-09 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sperry

So I'm pretty much useless.


Hmm. I didn't say it.

Dean 2004-02-09 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeSTI
This info guys might also get you thinking about all those ride-a-longs.....if somthing happens and you have a passenger bad things could happen :shock:

This is why with the Audi club, you have to be a member even to ride so the club insurance kicks in. Oh, and all the waivers both from the track/venue and club(Audi or SCCA) you have to sign basically make it pretty tough to sue much of anyone for anything.

You can get liabilty insurance for your track prepared car for the padock, and entering/leaving the track if you are so inclined and since you likely don't have it ensured otherwise.

tysonK 2004-02-09 11:00 PM

Racing our cars around a track seems to be pretty expensive and risky.


spendin' all da green, livin' on da edge


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