While I think it's totally kickass that somebody's mom is coming to a track day, I must question the wisdom of bringing a Viper or Corvette to run in the novice group. Is this her first time on track? If so, I would suggest driving another car (like, say, an STi.. ;)) If not, bump her to B group. Fast cars with slow drivers just isn't a good combination...

A viper will do fine in the A group if driven by an inexperinced driver. Instruction, and skills are based on driver, not car performance.

Indeed. The nature of the car just serves to amplify the driver's mistakes.

Then again, if she is skilled, she's gonna get tired of driving up the ass of a bunch of WRXs. :P

she is really looking forward to the instruction and is a good driver with lots of time behind the wheel to handdle the power. my only thought was the brakes on the viper might not hold in the corners vs. the corvette but she want to try with the viper because she might like to run it next year in SCCA. If she starts pushing the WRX guys we can move her so the experience is good for her?

As far as track time go's she has completted the Richard Petty school in vegas a few times Nascar

When I drove Dean's car at auto-x I don't think his overall better car amplfied my mistakes. If anything it made my decent driving better and started to clear up my bad spots.

Yes, but a viper is a different beast. Many people who think they know how to a drive (even if they daily-drive a viper) will spend all day spinning out when they are on the track for the first time. There is a very small margin between taking a corner well, and oversteer. Plus, with all that power, oversteer is almost an uncorrectable mistake (except to the seasoned RWD track driver).

I think the whole mikes mom w/ the viper thing is awesome! I might bring my mom along to watch :) She always wants to meet the women drivers.

Watch?! Why don't you suggest she get signed up to drive, too?

Yah I guess Kevin was thinking more Track and I was thinking more Auto-x, of course two very different worlds!

Actually, they are not that far apart. Autocross amplifies almost everything, so you can get more out of shape at much slower speeds. It also gives you more oportunities to make a mistake in 60 seconds than just about any other form of motorsports.

A well prepared car will insulate the driver from many of their mistakes, and the Viper is no different. In stock form the incredible traction from the huge tires will protect a driver from a mutitude of sins unless they perform those sins with their right foot to the floor. A competant instructor should have no problem discouragng that in a novice track driver.

The insulation I described is why I always say that you will learn to be a better driver in a stock car on street tires. Just adding race tires to a stock car will instantly allow a person to be faster while actually driving worse.

By no means do I think she shouldn't go, and if she has any previous experience in an HPDE environment, she should be okay. But I don't EVER want to share a track with any driver in a Viper who's never learned the difference between driving and driving.

What does that mean... Who cares what kind of car they are in...

Have you ever been to a NASA HPDE? $4!+ goes on in all those groups and the perpitrators are in vehicles of every shape size and level of preperation.

IMHO the issue is that they put to many cars on course with an insuficient quantity of instructors, and few if any controls on who is allowed in each group. Hopefully are event will not have those issues.

You don't get to pick and choose who is in your run group. You only have the choice of who you drive near by way of controling your position on the track, and being aware of other car's position on the track.

It's all about instruction and controls IMHO. At Quattro club events we run 3-4 run groups/experience levels, Novice, Intermediate, and Advanced, and Instructors. All student groups have an instructor in every car. Advanced students can be signed off to Solo with the approval of 2 instructors at a given track, but are never required to run alone. Also no one is allowed to carry passengers except instructors.

NASA lets run goup 2 out with no instructors, and passengers last I knew. Not the thing I want, someone fairly new to performance driving trying to impress his buddy...

I don't know what the issue is with Vipers, an idiot in a BMW can put you in the wall just as easily, ask Gary.

well depending on how things go I will give my mom the option to drive my car (she has never driven a car with a turbo) which I think could be worse, but thats just because its my car :lol: . I would plead with everyone not to discourage someone who wants to try something new. My mom is 42 and has drivin performance cars for over 20 years now (mostly corvette's). She has owned a Viper sence 94' when the first ones came out. With proper instruction (which is all she is really looking for) I'm sure she will not lose control nor is she the type to not let someone pass.

Mike, I would have her drive her car as it is the one she wants to learn to drive better.

Tracks are often quite intimidating to even the most experienced street drivers, and being comfortable with the car helps get over this more quickly.

I'm sure she will do fine, and not cause any issues with proper instruction.

IMHO track awarness(flaggers, passing, etc.) is primarily the instructors responsibility in a novice group. The student has way to much new information coming in to handle that additional load. Learning track awarness is part of being a novice....

Thanks Dean. I to think she will be just fine even with all of us out there :D

Also, don't forget that the track is quite long now, and we probably won't have more than 15 cars out on course at a time... plenty of room to play safely!

I'm sure Mike's mom will do fine... plus I'm looking forward to seeing a Viper out there! :twisted: (Actually, she might not have the only Viper, I'm still trying to get my old boss out there with his 600whp supercharged Viper.)

that would be sweet :shock: I want my mom to see a Viper with mods even though the first mod on her car would problly be a big break kit :D

Brake, not break, right? We don't want her car to break.....

I think she should go out there in her Viper & learn. She'll be fine, and she'll probably enjoy it alot!

Are you going to run Debbie? Plus, a little bird told me you're recognized as an instructor by Audi as well... wanna do some ride-alongs with the beginner group if possible?

Wow, the stock brakes are pretty dang big on that beast. I think decent pads, and maybe stainless lines and some decent fluid are all the car needs unless it is a pure track burning beast. Have her invest in seat time, and upgrade as she feels is warrented by the car's performance as she learns it.

Just like th Z06, that car is pretty dang well setup off the showroom floor. Things like tire pressure, tires, alignment, brake pads... are all it really takes to make the car perform well on a track. "Mods" are not necessary.

That's really all I was looking for Mike- assurance that she more or less knows how to handle the car and herself without getting into trouble. If she's had a Viper for 10 years and hasn't put it in a ditch yet, she's probably okay. Besides, she's not even in my run group. :P It's jsut that after Buttonwillow, I'm leary of all newbie drivers, and newbie+ 500 hp + heavy RWD car = scary.

Dean, you remind me of my last calculus professor. She's been so good for so long at what she does, she's completely forgotten what it's like to not know it all. I'm still fresh enough that I can remember being new, and being on track with people like me only they had more dangerous cars, and it gives me a little case of nerves a little.

Just to be clear, I'm in no way objecting to Mike's mom coming out and having fun with us. I'n just being overly cautious, and I don't think that's something to apologize for in a high-speed environment.

Was she hot?

No seriously, I do understand exactly what you are talking about. As one of the lead instructors for the Quattro club I am often paired with some of the slowest, and most scared drivers, as well the fastest and scariest drivers in the novice groups.

All I am trying to convey is that the car is basically a non issue, it is the driver you should be wary of. (Surely not Mike's mom though :) ) An inexperienced driver in a small underpowered car, say an RS :) who thinks they can drive is much more of a risk to you as a fellow driver on the track, than an inexperienced driver who knows that and wants to learn in a viper, hummer, bulldozer, steam roller, tank, etc...

If there had been a competent instructor in the car you describe at Buttonwillow, you would not have given the Viper a second thought. If the same driver had been in a geo metro, you would probably still have needed to be wary of them...

Your calculus teacher and I are probably a lot alike, just trying to pound some information into you little whipper snapper's heads. (Say that last part with your lips over your teeth.)

Just remember to watch the flags! :P

Same here, Deans car made me look like an autocross legend with my own theme music and fanbois. I was so disappointed to take the cape off and drive my own car again the next day :(

Quote of the day!

Just remember guys, there's a bit of a difference between the way Dean's nice, neutrally balanced AWD WRX amplifies mistakes, and the way a 400+ hp RWD beast amplifies mistakes. Accidentally get on the throttle too quickly in Dean's car: you plow. Do it in a Viper, you swap ends.

That said, it's really about the driver. Anyone who's out there to learn, and keeps the car under control and makes planned inputs will be fine. Anyone who's out there pretending to be Boris Said, drifting, early apexing, and pushing their limits is dangerous, regardless of the car under them.

I only do that in School Zones and busy freeway off ramps! :lol:


With that said... Let's get this thread back on topic...Probably wouldn't hurt to split today's discussion off anyway...

This is so funny because while I like my car, I love to get into other cars at stock levels to see what they can do, and I can do in them. Stock cars are much more telling of the driver's skills than prepared ones IMHO.

I'm not sure my car amplifies anything. (Didn't I say this already? Oh well...) You probably have to make 10-20% more total error in my car than a stock WRX suspension, but that margin disappears very quickly if you go 10-15% faster... Drive both cars at the same speed, and mine will mask a lot that would have made a stock car push, etc...

Laerning to drive a car well requires that you listen/feel the feedback the car is giving you. The better your suspension, tires, etc are, the less feedback you get, the slower you learn... Learn to make a stock car go fast, and you will be that much better in a prepared car.

Some of the Quattro Club instructors that fly in from other regions end up in Daewoo and similar automatic, underpowered, all season econo tired compact rentals. Watching them catch S4s and the like in the twisty bits is quite enlightening...

Ha! It amplified my pax time at the Divisional!

LOL :lol:

edit: due to Scotts split

She isnt that good... :p I couldnt get her to drive at the auto-x's she attended, let alone a track day.

What flags? :huh:

Okay, let me try to poitn out what I'm really saying in this newly created sub-thread. I know absolutely nothing about Mike's mom, her skills, her eperience, or her car. I am speaking purely hypothetically here. That said:

For a NOVICE driver, can any of you think of a car that is

A) More likely to come into a corner too hot, and

B) less likely to get loose when you try to decelerate too far into said corner?

That situation is lesson #1 for new drivers and it's usually not one learned in the driver's meeting. If she's not likely to make that mistake in particular, then chances are she, like any of us, is ready to learn to go around the track fast and safe.

Porsches (RWD).

reminds me of the quote: "Porsches understeer until they start to oversteer"

But all your grip are belong to Porsche!

Or,
All your voided warranties are belong to Porsche!

And Subaru, and Mitsubishi, and Dodge...

that was great - you win!

I thought older Porsches were notorious for swapping ends easily... that's why in the last few years the rear-end's gotten wider and wider to cram more and more tire under there, not to mention all the crazy active-aero that's been added.

They are. My friend had an old 911. Whenever we were playing with it we were all, "Let's not go too fast huh?" I think he swapped ends at least once, on the street. :lol:

JC

In my experience it has little to do with the car, and everything to do with the driver, and more importantly, the instructor sitting in the passenger seat doing his/her job.

And, if you insist on talking about cars, a WRX on RE92s and stock suspension is much more likely to come in hotter than the car can support IMHO than a Viper on stock rubber.

I'm not even sure what B means, but.... I beleive the viper is an incrediably stable car under braking with a stock alignment. The stock WRX would be much more prone to be loose. Things that would be less loose under braking would be any car with better grip, balance, and better ABS.

Remember, under braking, AWD is mosly meaningless, as is horsepower.

The water cooled ones are actually exceptionally well balanced, but I guess you mean the last few years of the air cooled ones. Yes, they were prone to oversteer, but mostly under power, not braking. They can be setup to grreatly minimize it though as we have seen out at autocross with some really fast older Porsches.