Accessport/Street tuner
 

I have been looking at an engine management solution that will allow me to have full power on the street but stay in ESP, so I have been looking at COBB's stuff again. I just got off the phone with them and found out a few things:

- Each copy of street tuner can only make maps for a particular accessport.
- Pro-tuner, the version that Nate would want if he decided to make maps for the accessport is due out in summer (that could mean anything though, cobb always misses their dates)
- When you flash a base map onto the accessport it automatically updates the fruity checksum so there should be no problem passing an OBDII smog test

I have given the accesstuner a lot of thought becuase I was pretty interested in learning how to tune. Accessport + Accesstuner is pretty much the same cost as a UTEC. The Accesstuner seems a bit more user friendly, but you can not do as many things with it. I decided to stick with the accessport until I manage Cobb's stage 2.5 ( VF34, Pinks, Fuel Pump) and then sell the accessport and get an Ecutek Tune. The Ecutek tune seems to be better at learning around varying conditions etc. The UTEC and Accesstuner seem to have more problems with conditions.

<a href="http://www.wrxforum.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=000038/">
Here</a> is the Accesstuner link for those of you that are intestested.

I'd personally pick AccessPort over UTEC any day. The AccessPort tune is more like a ECUtek tune in regards to safety. Since it uses the stock ECU and reprograms it, all the failsafes are there. UTEC fools the ECU by sending it very well defined but faulty data, so the motor doesn't really know whats up.

StreetTuner on the other hand is a perfect opportunity to really push the limits of your cars tuning, much in the same dangerous ways the UTEC can. It can be a powerful learning tool, but its also quite dangerous IMO.

Of course, I'm really an ECUtek fan, so you'll find me there first. ;) But as an alternative, I much prefer AP over UTEC.

Nick's got it down. EcuTek>ST>AP>Utec

Listen not to these ECUTek snobs...

I have both an Access Port, and an ECUTek flashed ECU, and am considering getting the Street Tuner.

If search was working for old threads, I could find the thread where all this was covered ad nausium.

ST offers some interesting options assuming you have all the right guages required to keep you safe, and you make small incremental changes.

ECUTek is allegedly going to offer something similar to ST, but I have not seen a delivery date yet.

Don't let these nay sayers turn you off on AP/ST.

Oh my god dean. I go to great lengths to say how great the AP and Street Tuner are, yet you still feel the need to get defensive. Its a great product, no one is arguing that.

Besides, I bet ECUtek's userflashing solution won't show up 1.5 years after the inital product ship date:p

I just ordered the street tuner software, I am going to give it to Nate to play with for a few weeks, then when I have the cash I will get the accessport and get Nate to make me some maps.

Nick, I meant no offense... Mostly annoyed by Kevin's one line ">" response... Not very helpfull. I appologize for lumping you in with him.

Forgotten, do your research and make your own decisions. There are owners of both here in Reno, feel free to check them out.

I actually have the accessport and couldn't be more satisfied with it. I run the Cali91 Stage 1 map, and as Tyson can attest I have a whole new car. It pulls much better in first and second. Downpipe and Up-pipe getting installed in the next two weeks, so I'm sure I will be impressed with Stage 2 just as much. I'm looking forward to see what Mike gets out of the accesstuner. Threads on Clubwrx.net and Nasioc(I know) didn't seem to get much out of it. It is brand new software though and not many people have had a chance to try their hand at it.

The general consenses is that it doesn't give access to enough things when tuning for big power. Nate himself said pretty much the same thing to me on the phone this afternoon, but for the simple mods I am planning, it should be perfect. Plus I can run full boost on the street and stock boost at autox, and I won't have to reflash back to stock to get smogged.

Later this yeah (maybe) when the pro-tuner comes out, it should handle everything that ecutek handles and more.

FYI I had the cali stage 2 map on my WRX, with the uppipe and cobb's catted turboback. I ditched it for an ecutek tune from Nate. Nate got me about 5 Hp/5 ft-lbs of torque more, but it was never as smooth as the cobb map. Cobb seems to spend a LOT of time on driveablilty, things like open loop to closed loop transitions, partial throttle driving etc. I think you will be happy with it. I have tried both the accessport and ecutek, and I am going back to the accessport for my STi!

Wow, I guess I just assumed that a custom tuned Ecutek map would be better than the of the shelf Cobb map. I'm really interested in the slight tweaking that Accesstuner can do, it should make the Cobb maps just about perfect.

We may be missing one thread comparing all the options here, but the search functions on about 6 other Subaru forums are working perfectly fine. The bottom line is, if you don't have the time, talent, and inclination to tune your car yourself over many hours, Ecutek is the best solution.

The last thing I'll say on the matter is that if I had a late model WRX or STi, and wanted it as a dual use car, for track/autocross and street driving, I'd be taking it to Nate for an EcuTek. My ego doesn't require that I get credit for making the car faster, only that it is.

MikeK

You might live to regret/enjoy this thread.

And Yeah Pete, although I have rode in a stage 2 COBB car I just liked feeling your car around the auto-x course which I could compare to my weaksauce low-torque-low-boost-mobile.

ah! well from what i have seen.. Ecutek = the best thing for wrx's right now...

i mean James's 278whp VF34 wrx on Gruppe-s's dyno = amazing

BAN SUV's is right in a sense.. tuning the other EMS's takes alot of time and patience. It actually takes a rediculous amount of time (if you plan to learn) and is pretty fustrating. dont forget you'll also need to drop another 350$ on a wideband 02 sensor.. also you run the risk of getting caught doing 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gear pulls on the street.. haha

While we're all dropping our $0.02 around here (and while the search indexes are rebuilding) I'll add my opinion:

The bottom line with all these products is that you're only going to get out of it what you put into it. If you think you can tune better than someone w/ 100's of hours and 1000's of tunes and their own AWD dyno, then A) have at it, and B) start your own business. An experienced tuner is the number 1 thing that will give you a good tune... not the hardware or software. I bet Nate can tune a UniChip better than I could tune a StreetTuner.

In the case of MikeK's comparison of +5hp/+5tq on the EcuTek over the smoothness of the AP... My guess is that since the AP map was made in Utah, it's probably a bit better matched to the altitude here in Reno, hense the smoothness. I bet if you told Nate you weren't happy w/ the smoothness of his tune, he probably would have fixed it, *and* kept your hp/tq gains. The man is a perfectionist when it comes to tuning. You saw how many times he kept tossing MattR's and Nick's STis on the dyno trying to make their maps perfect. I have a really hard time believing that someone w/o real tuning experience is going to come even close to that sort of result tuning the car on the street.

But that's just my $0.02... directed not necessarily at Forgotton, but at all the people (*cough* Dean *cough*) that are implying that achieving a good tune on a modern ECU is akin to hooking up the old timing light and twisting the distributor.

Agreed, which is why Nate is going to be making all my maps :) It is just unfortunate that cobb's pro-tuner is still vapourware, otherwise I wouldn't have bothered with street tuner :(

Yeah, I'm actually curious what Nate will be able to do with ProTuner and StreetTuner. We may find he likes the software much better.

Personally, I think I'm going to hold of on the whole reflash thing for a bit longer. I'm curious what kind of features the ECUtek user flashing solution will have so we can compare side by side.

Programming your engine yourself is very time-consuming and difficult, but it is certainly possible if you're willing to learn. I've taken my Mustang from pinging like crazy on 91 octane to running smoothly on 87 octane in the space of a couple of months, using a tuning device with no documentation whatsoever. :)

Did you properly match your boost, timing, fuel and load maps? What about open-loop to close-loop transitioning? Cold start? A/C? Idle? Learning correction? Timing advance multiplier? How are your partial-throttle full-boost EGT's, or did you get the waste-gate duty cycle properly matched? How about the duty cycle for larger injectors? Where'd you install the wide-band O2? How about the AVCS variable timing? Did you make sure to set the parameters for the stock EGT sensors to prevent inefficient cat CELs? Will the car pass an OBD-II smog check, is the ECU check-sum corrected? And did you do it all right the second time for the secondary map?

...not to knock the work you've done, but tuning a 5.0L EFI Mustang motor is slightly less complicated than tuning a Turbo Subaru motor. In fact... I question why I'm bothering w/ this WRX thing anyway... a Chevy 350 in a Porsche 914 would be faster, and much easier and cheaper to work on. :lol:

I don't doubt it, but all it takes is time and patience.

You're not the only one... I'm looking around at how much it costs to actually race a Mustang and it starts getting ridiculous when you add everything up, because they eat through consumables like it's going out of style. Something like a Spec Miata or Legends is way simpler and cheaper... I don't know what I'll eventually end up doing with my car. :~:

I would still argue that in the case of a modern turbo motor, simple time and patience isn't enough to get a good safe tune. In addition, you will need specialized tools like a wide-band O2 sensor, Exhaust Gas Pyrometer, and Boost Gauge. Plus a way to test settings in a controlled environment (i.e. a dyno, I don't think anyone really has an indoor test track around here). Also, a good background in engine physics, and an understanding of forced induction.

Now, I will agree that someone with some of the above can can probably eek out a bit more from their car if they're just tweaking an existing tune, I don't think anyone can just up and tune a car w/o some sort of experience, either an appreticeship type deal, or the experience that comes w/ blowing a few motors. :lol:

Regarding door to door racing... I think Spec Miata's are probably the best bet. Because the series is so popular, it's not too hard to pick up someone's old car and campaign it. Chances are you won't be competative, but you will gain an assload of door to door experience. Then you pass it down to the next n00b, and built yourself a competative car. Once you learn how to win, then trade up to a bigger series, like Speed TC. :devil:

I was thinking of going AccessPORT stage 2, but It seems like this thread echoes similar opinions to what I've been reading on wrxfanatics.com and Nabisco. Nothing beats a really good tune with a Ecutek (well except a standalone perhaps, but that's definately an overkill for me). I may still go with Cobb, but I wanted to hear from locals. I'm new to Reno and this elevation and weather is extreme. Seems like if the Ecutek reacts to environmental variable changes better, that's the way to go in Reno. Whatayallthink?

Honestly, either solution will work great. They both respond to weather and atmospheric changes safely and quickly.

The only thing I personally don't recomend is standalones or piggybacks if you don't know what you are doing.

I agree with Nick... They are both good products...

I am so sick of the *cough* ECUTek preaching *cough*... And statements that you can't possibly tune a Subaru yourself without detonating your engine.

Each product has its own pros and cons.

AccessPort maps and the foundation maps for ST are created by a company with more hours tuning Subarus than probably anyone in the USA.

To say that tuner X with ECUTek software can do better/safer/with 1/2 the calories is quite presumptious.

I would also mention that the Cobb maps are done at a much similar altitude to ours.

I own both.

My ECUTek has a very specific purpose, at which it excells. If you want a single map, or two for specific purposes, it is a good option, but be prepared to drive to Sac. every time you make a Mod, or want something changed, and the corresponding cost of the dyno time.

With the AP, I can change between many maps with different purposes. With ST I hope to be able to make careful and small tweaks to those well tested base maps to fit my needs. And in the process, hope to learn something.

They are Apples and Oranges. Make your own choices based on your needs/wants.

I never said ECUTek is better than Cobb's offerings. I said a dumbass on the street has a hopeless chance of tuning a car to the level that an experienced professional with the right tools can. Hell, when you get down to it, the AP and the ECUTek are exactly the same thing: the stock ECU.

The reason I tend to bag on the Street Tuner is because it's being sold as some magical tool that will somehow allow Joe Everybody to tune there car as long as they've got a place to do 4th gear pulls. :roll: Even the name, "Street Tuner" is disgusting in its implications. You can argue all you want that you can tweak your car with said product, but the bottom line is that it's not being sold as a tweaking tool, it's being sold as a tuning tool.... say it with me... street.... tuner. Not "closed course tweaker".

So, if and when you can go out and tune your car from the ground up, on the street, in a repeatable, safe, and legal manner with the Street Tuner software, then I'll stop recommending the ECUTek over the Street Tuner. I'm not exactly holding my breath.

So like you said, make your own decision based on your needs and wants, but don't go into it thinking that all it's gonna take is a little persistance and you can tune your car yourself. If you don't know what you're getting yourself into, you will damage your car, and if you do know what you're getting yourself into, you're probably already bringing your car to a professional.

Ugh... I'm starting to feel like Kevin in these debates! :P

Not even close dude. Go read the drama of the day in SRIC. :lol:

No thanks, I'm staying out of that.... I'm all out of 10 foot poles.

I went and read "some" of that thread. It's funny how every thread like that pretty much looks exactly the same.

I wonder if the next dude who brings up road tuning and(notice did not use vs. there) dyno tuning will get such a reaction.

I just got back from Dust to Glory, it was good, not great though.

Dude, that's like telling a room full of snowboarders that the last Warren Miller flick was "pretty good". :lol: You have to remember that the subject alone makes that movie "good" around here... the fact that it was well filmed and well edited makes it pretty much a great film.

If you wanna call DtG "good but not great", go do so on a film critic's message board.

</sarcasm> :P :lol:

ha!

good, I feel better not having to explain!

Good, I feel better not having to illustrate why I didn’t think it was great.

It was my expectations that lead me to my good but not great thesis, so it’s really my own fault. damn me.

I meant to post this in that other thread about the film but I was too lazy to find it.

,

Tyson.... are you drunk? :lol:

But that's the point, a PROFESSIONAL with the right tools did create the base maps for the AP/ST! You continue to minimize that and assume that 30 minutes on a dyno with a "professional" is magically better. Mike K's open to closed loop transition issues are a great example of where the AP outshined the ECUTek/dyno tune. Could it have been resolved on the ECUTek, yes, probably with many more pulls, but ECUTek and a DYNO are not magical!


Why in the world would I want to start from the ground up? I don't understand your premiss.

ECUTek doesn't start at ground zero. They publish base maps, etc. that the tuner uses to build the custiomized ones There isn't just a screen full of Zeros. Even AEM has base maps for at least the cars they have harness connectors for. What is this obsession with starting from scratch?

You are right, they are both the stock ECU with all it's abilities to adapt, and protect your engine, with maps on them.

With ECUTek, you get one or two maps "customized" to your car/needs that require a trip back to the tuner when you make changes that are outside the ability of the ECU to adapt.

With AP/ST you get 5-10+ maps that you can customize to your car/needs as they change over time.

Two different approaches, with different implications, costs, risks, and energy/effort involved.

All I ask is that we stop bagging on either product, and stick to the tech.

For what its worth, the only ECUtek cars that can have two maps are the drive by cable WRXs (02-04 IIRC). All the drive by wire cars (Mine, STi, Forester XT, Baja turbo and I think 05 WRXs) can only have one map. That may change in time, but not at the moment.

<-- still an ECUtek fanboy

Holy jesus Dean... I'm so sick of this argument... especially when you're not even bothering to read what I'm typing.

Let me reitterate:

- ECUTek and AP are exactly the same thing: ways to get a custom map on the stock ECU. By the laws of physics one can't be "better" than the other at their primary task: putting new maps on the ECU. This has absolutely *nothing* to do w/ the rest of my argument.

- Cobb's Street Tuner is being sold as an alternative a professional dyno tune. The idea is that one doesn't need an expensive dyno or experience to get the same performance out of the car. That concept is patently FALSE:

- First, a "road dyno" is never as repeat able as a controlled chassis dyno. -

- Second, someone w/o experience will virtually never tune a car as well as someone with professional experience.

As far as the "ground up" tuning... that was just a hypothetical example to demonstraight the ass kicking you'd recieve if you tried to tune a car on the street. It was not meant as evidence in the ECUTek vs. AP debate... in acutality, the fact that you bring up that Street Tuner maps started on a dyno is actually supporting evidence that tuning on the street is retarded.

So let me summarize one more time, so I don't have to repeat myself in later posts:

ECUTek vs. AP: knock yourself out, it's the same technology. AP's got a nice ability to load multiple maps, but that comes at the cost of risk since it's hard to 100% authenticate the maps you're downloading off the internet. However, if you're getting all your maps made by your tuner for your car/purpose, you're all set.

Road vs. Chassis Dyno: Road dynos are what "tuners" use when they can't afford a real chassis dyno. If it's the best you've got, well then it's the best you've got... but we've got access to a real tuner with a real dyno, so tuning your car on a "road dyno" is retarded, as it will never be as accurate and repeatable as a chassis dyno.

Home Tuning vs. Professional Tuning: Unless they're a friggen genius, or just plain lucky, chances are Joe Public can't tune as well as an experienced professional... or Joe Public would open Joe Public Motorsports, buy a dyno and make some money as a professional. Just because I have some channel-locks and know what teeth look like, doesn't mean I can call myself a dentist. Real experience and training counts for a lot more than "well I read some shit on the internet about tuning".

Tweaking after a Pro Tune: If you think you can "tweak" your maps yourself better than your tuner, then either you will be risking the safety built into the pro's tune because there's no room for improvement, or you didn't explain the purpose of the maps to you tuner properly and he left something on the table. A real pro will interact w/ you and get the car right, or you're not dealing w/ a real pro. Bottom line: you shouldn't need to tweak anything.

Finally... as far as bagging on "either product", you're missing something. I'm not really talking about two specifc products... I'm talking about two types of products. Pro tuning software vs. home tuning software. ECUTek, Access Port, hell even the lowly UniChip... they're all fine, since they're not meant for Joe Public. Stuff like the Street Tuner, UTEC, and whatever the home tuning deal that's coming from ECUTek... well, I say stay away... or at the least know what you're getting yourself into... know that you're probably not as smart as the pro, know that you don't have the same tools available, know that you're either not going to be as fast and/or you're not going to have the same margin of safety.

*gasp* I think I've said all I want to say... someone else feel free to have the last word.

Am I watching a re-run of some bad episode, or what? :rolleyes: :) I guess it might be informative, or even entertaining for some of our newer members.

:D Oh yah, opinion spewing is what has made car forums interesting for me.

This is more hemorrhaging than spewing.

hemorrhaging=gross

Just wanted to say something. :D

We've hashed out this argument before, and our different opinions are pretty well known - Scott & Kevin & Dean & me aren't going to change each other's minds on the subject. Why are we still talking about this? :rolleyes:

So then, what are you gonna end up doing Mike?

I hope Nate will learn how to use MikeK ST and then I can have him make me maps for my car. (when I buy my ST ofcourse)

I really just want to be able to switch maps. Maybe a 100 oct. 91 oct. and econo map for long drives to events.

I like the idea of a pro tune but I still think it would be cool to see what the tuner is doing to the maps so that when I data log I can see how the car is adjusting or tweaking the maps to make the car run. this is the difference between the 2 when it comes to cost. the EcuTech will require additional hardware to run a data logger were the ST has one built-in? (with the addition of a wideband O2)

I ordered street tuner (with the money I had set aside for a clear bra ... oh well, my front end is already chipped). I am going to give it to Nate to play with for a few weeks, then next month I will whack on the exhaust and get him to make me an esp map.

ECUtek is way better than Cobb AP.

C'mon folks I read it on NASIOC!

It must be true.!

I of course love my Nate @ SS EcuTek tuned Subaru...3 out of 4 STi owners recommend it.!

Hmmmm Matt never asks for a second tune at home, I'm changing from Cobb to ECUtek.

I knew all my time spent watching NASCAR would pay off! I got my "sponsors" listed in my speech, and convinced someone to buy a product, I rule. :lol:

ummm when were you with Cobb? :lol:

That's not important :lol: we're marketing here...shoooo!

then my maketing is I want a Pro tune instead of this shelf map :D Go Nate Go!!!

Eric got a special "Salt Lake" map from Cobb, that seems to be very strong at our altitude.



But... ECUTEK