Help me understand HR 4437, and related arguments
 

As far as I see it, HR 4437 seeks to criminalize all current illegal immigrants and those who house or help them. It also seeks to have a 700 mile fence built and actually enforce the protection of our borders by deporting and/or detaining illegal or undocumented immigrants. It would also give the state and local gov'ts federal rights when it comes to this. This is different from what Bush proposed right? I am for immigration, against illegal immigration and am trying to understand all sides and arguments so I can make an educated decision on where I stand. Is HR 4437 the best way to stop illegal immigration? It seems having 11 million criminals in the country all of a sudden could get expensive...

Normally I'm a pretty anti-immigration type person. I figure, if there are rules and procedures for coming to this country, they should be adheared to. People from everywhere are welcome here, but if you don't follow the rules, you should be sent packing.

However, there was an international journalist on the Daily Show last night that changed my mind. Much of the racial tension/unrest in europe (France especially) right now actually spans to the EU's poor handling of immigration. They criminalize their illegal immigrants, which leads to tremendous feelings of inequity and oppression/resentment amonst both legal and illegal immigrants. Immigration is actually one of the few social problems we handle correctly here in the US. I'm not saying we should just open the flood gates, but we certainly shouldn't start criminalizing people that came here just looking for a better life. The US was founded by people like that, and our immigrants actually are one of our biggest assets as a nation.

Plus, it's not like the illegal immigrant problem in the states is actually that big of a "problem", at least it's not a criminal one. The vast majority of illegals keep their noses clean, because if they get busted for anything, they get sent back. So they abide by the law, and work hard at the jobs that most other people won't do. And with determination they eventually make a decent life for themselves (or at least their children). It may be illegal, but it's the American way... at least the way the American way was before it became all about plasma TVs and 20" rims. :roll:

I think some sort of immigration reform is in order, but criminalizing so many people like that could create a great amount of unrest and I'm sure even more anemosity (sp?) toward immigrants in genenal, legal or not. As I'm finding by more and more reading, HR 4437 seems like a step in the right direction, but too extreme an action.

Why? Do we really have a problem? They provide cheap labor for jobs that most Americans don't want to do. If you ask me there are real problems that the government needs to be worried about before some BS political pandering to trailer park rednecks about immigration. How about some health care reform? Maybe deal with our deficit? The poor state of education? Seems like there are lots of important things taking a backseat to something that's not even a problem.

I saw that too, I always like it when he's a guest. Seems like a really intelligent man.

That's a good point, but I still believe in time this could become a much worse problem. Just 6 years ago there were 7 million illegal immigrants. Today there are 11 million (INS and Census Bureau estimations). There are only more and more coming, the majority of which are from Mexico.

Also, we may not have a problem with the illegal immigrants who come here to live, but there are people who don't like the U.S. and have the power to destroy this country, in one form or another. So not having secure borders poses a threat for national security, which could also become another problem.

X1000

Immigration reform sounds like a red herring for the Bush administration to give us something to talk about other than their tremendous failures in foreign policy, the deficit, healthcare, and nation building.

I mean, why else would this issue suddenly pop up out of nowhere? It's not like illegal immigration is a real problem for most of the country, it's really only a local problem for CA and TX mostly. But it's pretty easy to look good in front of middle America when you make is sound like there are all these dirty illegals spilling over the border into the country, "oh noes, there's so many of 'em it's not long before they overrun your Iowan corn fields!!". So after scaring people this doesn't really concern (the same people that voted for Bush last election), you come down hard and tough on the manufactured situation and look like a bad-ass problem solver.

I don't buy it.

The thing that you're missing is that America is a nation of immigrants.

If we're "overrun" the worst that can happen is that the nature of our country changes. IMO, that's the whole point of America. If in 50 years our nation is predominantly latino, so be it, that's just the next step in the evolution of the US. As long as the constitution remains, and the Bill of Rights are still around, and there are a few people with common sense running the place, we'll be okay. It's not like the white majority is doing all that great a job these days.

And, as JC mentioned, we *need* illegal immigrants to compete with countries like China, where labor is so much cheaper. CA especially requires immigrant labor, or the whole certral valley agricultural market will die. As "wrong" as it may seem to turn a blind eye to the illegal immigrants, we need them here, they're the life blood of our economy. Criminalizing them and jailing them is going to hurt a lot of US businesses, tax our judicial system, and piss off Mexico and mexican immigrants both legal and illegal.

Besides, building a massive wall on the border is a pretty threatening move to Mexico, especially when we're a well known agressive nation these days. :(

"They took our jerrbs!!"

Worse than what? Prove to me it's a problem. People are mad because an immigrant will dig ditches for a dollar less an hour than white boy who failed out of high school because he can't read who wouldn't dig the ditch regardless. What we need to be worried about is making sure that guy can read so he doesn't fail out of school in the first place.

I went to Southern GA for spring break and stopped in this little cafe on the way back. Two girls who looked to be 16-18 were working there. One of them had to write Potato Salad on the special board and couldn't spell Potato OR Salad. It took the two a good combined 10 minutes to come up with Potatoe Salad. THAT'S a problem. THAT'S what we need to be worried about.

It infuriates me that people will put our country further into horrific debt trying to shift the blame for their problems to someone else. If they would just admit that we have huge problems with education, health care, and foriegn policy maybe we could make actual progress instead of throwing money at a straw man to make us feel better.

My. $.02
JC

I understand all that but I hate the fact that it's wrong and it still happens. I mean every country at one point had people immigrating into it to start a nation, we aren't that different from the rest. It also bothers me that we rely on this cheap, illegal labor so much. It sucks to me that our country has come to this, and now we are forced to deal with it.

If in 50 years our country does become predominantly Latino wouldn't you rather them be legal citizens? Or would it be better that they just take up space and not have a say in the country in which they populate most of? I'm not sure how much sense that last sentance makes... So would a better solution be to give these 11 million "undocumented citizens" 6 year work visas and attempt to keep the rest out? And if these people are granted amnesty through this, then they will have to be paid minimum wage right? I mean either way it seems the agricultural industry loses.

It is a security risk to have undocumented people crossing the border. I think we should put mass processing centers on the borders, and let whoever wants to come in come in - as long as they go through the defined process. A return to Ellis Island style mass immigration, if you will. The rest of the border should be absolutely locked down. That's what a military is supposed to be for, protecting your own borders, not off camping out in 70 thousand other countries flung around the world. No more illegal immigrants, only legal ones and dead ones.

Would you grant amnesty to those that are already here?

Actually most countries are born from their native populations. It's only the "colonial" countries that are made from immigrants, which is essentially the Americas. Though a lot of other countries were formed by European influence most are back to local control. Our country has come to what? We are still the economic and military force in the world. You somehow think illegal immigrants are hurting this?

We will be predominately Latino in 50 years regardless, they are already the largest minority. Some 40 odd million people and are the fastest growing populace. I won't complain about more hot latina women. You realize that most of latino population is here legally and that illegal immigrants children are US citizens. It's not an exponentially growing "problem" by any means. Don't give in to the fear mongering.

I want you and Austin to tell me how you intend to pay for your immigration reform. Who's after school programs are you going to cut? Or are going to print more money and cripple our economy with inflation?

If they came forward for processing, yes. Otherwise they would be hunted down like deer. :)

+1 MILLION

Additionally, all of these illegal immigrants that come to this country do not pay taxes, yet they are the first ones in line to tax the welfare system, which should also be a focal point of government reform.

I have no problems with anyone who wants to immigrate to this country legally to better their family. If they go through all of the proper channels and become a citizen, learn to read and write English, and contribute to the tax base of this country, then they become an asset to our economy.

I think one of the biggest things that ticks me off is the fact that so many illegal immigrants refuse to learn Englsih, yet we cater to them. Go look at a DMV manual, signs at the local Wal-Mart, or even welfare forms. Most of them are in two languages. Do you think that if you were and illegal immigrant in another country that they would cater to you and put up all the signs and forms in English? I highly doubt it.

I dunno, how are any of the governments faulty programs going to get reformed? By taking money from one thing and putting towards another. That is where we decide what is more important. Making them all illegal would be way too expensive, so I think that takes a low priority in comparison to education and welfare reform. But beefing up border security (IMO) seems higher priority than certain other things, but education and welfare reform still are top priority.

I'm a little too concerned w/ the psychological/racial/civil rights issues associated w/ telling a large sect of the population to "come forward for processing or we'll hunt you down like deer". I don't believe we'll be able to convince all those people that we mean them no harm, all they have to do it come forward.

If we're going to close the border for "security" reasons, not only will we have to allow unlimited immigration, we'll also have to grant all existing immigrants amnesty, and we're gonna have to scrape together a shitload of money to run the system.. maybe we can cancel that whole war on drugs waste of money and use that cash.

Unfortunately, I don't think that a closed border will actually make us significantly more secure, at least not for the money it'll cost.

Most people are incapable of immigrating here legally. I guess they are just screwed huh? You realize English is NOT the official language of the US right?

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how they are paying for this.

How much money do you think we'll make by taxing people that work for a dollar a day? IMO, the work they do far outways their burden on our social system.

And the US doesn't have an official language. How about you learn spanish and we'll convert everything to that?

Yeah they are just screwed. They are victims of their circumstances and that sucks, but it doesn't give them the right to come here and not pay taxes because our country was blind to see that we rely on them so much. It's no more right then kiddies making Nike shoes (I dunno if that still happens or not).

I guess I missunderstood all of the history classes and such that I took in high school and college that seemed to stress that English was pretty much the official language of the US. Maybe I was just hungover those days :D .

The "They" that you refer to who will be paying for this is you and I, and every other American tax payer.

They still pay taxes you know, just not income tax. It's not like they say "Oh I'm hear illegally, can you get rid of that sales tax for me." They usually make less than $20k /yr anyway which means essentially they'd pay no income tax anyway.

Maybe our education system just sucks. :p You can look it up, I'm not lying to you.

So now you are raising my taxes AND making me pay more for services? THANKS! Taking money out of my pocket is a great way to help the economy.

All of the illegal immigrants that I have ever came in contact with were actaully paid the same wage as their legal counterparts. Last year we had a couple of illegals here at work in the manufacturing facility that were making over $12.00/hr. We actually helped them become US citizen though and they have been an asset to our company.

I don't see how you can say that the US does not have an official language when one of the requirements for the citizenship test is to be able to read and write English. Additionally, let me go see what the constitution was written in....

+1.

And I do think that Nike finally put the cabash on child slave labor in those Asian countries.

Hmm, how about pulling back some of our military deployments around the globe? We could start with the 65000+ troops still stationed in Germany alone despite the cold war being dead for well over a decade. We could end the completely retarded and ineffective War On Drugs. We could change the federal budgetary & procurement systems to use methods that don't encourage rampant and wanton waste of money. Come on man, there's all kinds of restructuring the federal government could do without cutting some poor little kids after school program, and you know it.

But, that's fantasy land because no legislator will ever have enough balls to do it... all they're ever concerned with is carving out enough pork in the federal budget for their home district to keep getting elected.

Dude that's tight I didn't know Yahoo could do that.

When I made less than 20K a year, I still paid taxes, and it did suck!

I think I just saw something recently that ranked Nevada 48th in the nation in eduacation, that could be part of it :lol:

I am not saying I am in favor of this bill on the house floor in anyway, shape, or form. We have too much governemnt spending as it is (hence our huge ass deficit). We have the infastructure in place already to regulate immigration, yet we turn the other way.

Another great idea would be to repeal all salaries for elected officials, since they are public servants, after all.

I think this bill boils down to two reasosn for existence: the red herring from the White House/Congress, and red state congressmen pushing an unlikely law to pass so they can go home and tell their constituents "hey, we TRIED to kick out all those dirty immigrants who are ruining our country, but those godless liberals wouldn't go along with it!"

As far as the philisophical stuff... I'm kinda soft on immigration. Like Scott and JC have said, immigration's benefits over our nation's history have FAR outweighed its costs. I personally would like to see more effort made to get immigrants who inend to be permanently here to go through naturalization, but I also think we need little tolerance for those who commit criminal acts. And the national security argument is laughable- somebody ask the CIA how effective the USSR and eastern bloc was at keeping out undesirables. If the administration ever actually proposed any kind of "hard" border controls, it would be the first step to revolution and civil war. I don't see anybody with any real power in our current system finding that to be acceptable.

Point taken.

My final point regarding langauge:

Go to Germany, France, Mexico, or any other non-English speaking country and see how much they will cater to you speaking English.

Exactly, so how would you actually pay for it?

I make less than $20k, I barely pay anything. Technically ya, but it's still not a large amount in the grand scheme of things.

48th! We are moving on up, lol. I remember when I went to college, it was clear that my education background was not up to par with other peoples. Nevada schools FTL.

I mean it's a huge undertaking. A lot of the illegal immigrants came into this country legally and just overstayed. So it's not just a border security issue.

Well you guys helped me decide that HR4437 is a bad, bad bill. Dunno what I can do with that knowledge tho... maybe go sign some petitions or something.

Also, we are 38th =/ http://www.govspot.com/lists/stateeducation.htm

+1. I could have not said it better myself.

It's my fantasy immigration program, it can be paid for just fine by my fantasy government restructuring. :) None of it will ever happen...

The Daily Show clip is online if anyone wants to watch it. First guy, Fareed Zakaria.

http://www.comedycentral.com/shows/t...ws/index.jhtml

"I've traveled everywhere. I'm just back from Colorado."

:lol:

"So, how do they feel about America- in Colorado?"

:lol: x eleventy

I think you're actually making a good poit in a round about way. Immigration reform is a fantasy problem. The solutions being tossed around are all fantastic in nature... like building a Great Wall of Mexico. What a waste of money, for what's not really a pressing problem. Could our immigration policy use a facelift? Sure... but I think we've got much bigger fish to fry 1st:

- we need to stop war mongering/nation building
- we need to drop the war on drugs
- we need to focus our military on more important issues like domestic security and advanced technology so we can maintain superior might with less soldiers
- we need *drastic* reform to our election process
- we need *drastic* reform to our law making process to remove lobbiests from the process
- we need to return the individual freedoms to citizens that have been stolen by corporations and goverment (i.e. DMCA, Patriot Act, etc)
- we need to rebuild medicare/medicade/prescription drugs/social security
- we need to streamline the process for all government funding/budgeting so we stop throwing away billions of dollars
- we need to return to a balanced budget and pay off the trillions of dollars we owe ourselves
- we need to convert our energy use to oil alternatives
- and most of all we need to figure out some way to get a decent education to every child, and every adult that wants one, because if we return to having the brighest and most motivated citizens we'll have the resources to solve all of our problems w/o the knee-jerk and fear mongering that we use to "solve" our problems these days.

Then we can start worrying about all the illegal immigrants, because if we can actually solve all those other problems, we really will have too many people trying to come here.

Also notice that "fight terrorism" isn't on my list. IMO, to win that "war" all we have to do is get our dick out of their mashed potatos and that problem will solve itself.

I can't believe you said "get our dick out of thier mashed potatos", but it makes a good point.

Living in AZ for two years gave me a harsh perspective on the illegal immigrant thing. I know, personally, FAR too many people whom, for example, had their vehicles plowed into by a person who had no insurance, didn't own the car they were driving, and turned out to be an illegal immigrant. There's nothing that anyone could do for them, and they were most often stuck with a jacked up car, and no money to fix it, due to the fact that an illegal immigrant, obviously with no license or insurance, T-boned them at an intersection.

It's just a single example of an occurance that happens DAILY in the greater PHX area, but that and a multitude of other instances have given me a negative stand-point on this particular topic.

I'm sure you all understand! :D

I don't know what that means but it's funny as hell.

The problem you're citing isn't illegal immigration, it's bad/unlicensed/uninsured drivers. You know why those people aren't insured/licensed? 'Cause if they try to get a license/training, they'll be deported. If anything, what you're describing is a symptom that would be alleviated if we grant amnesty to illegals.

'Course, amnesty for all illegals might open the floodgates with people that think "all I gotta do it get over the border and I'm a citizen", which is not what I'm proposing or supporting.

I think giving them amnesty now is all we can do and is the best decision for the given situation.

Or we can just play the old "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" card. Compared to the other issues facing America, this one really probably just can wait. Maybe the local governments closer to the situation can work on their own solutions, but IMO we're frying the wrong fish at a federal level simply because the smoke from the cooking is being used to obscure all the rotting food in the kitchen.

That's a good analogy. And yeah I think that it really isn't the biggest priority right now. I didn't think that earlier today but much resolution has come from this thread. For me anyway.