Suspension choices makes my head hurt
 

Sooooo.... I'm starting to look at suspension upgrades for the STi and don't know where to start.
My rears have started making a bunch of noise and I can feel something sticking back there when I come to a stop and everything settles.

I'm not looking the ultimate setup but I'd like to feel like I got some improvement. I looked at tein's website for about .0000000001 seconds and realized 1. I don't know what I'm doing, 2. their site sucks cuz I feel lost.

I'm not concerned with autoX classes.
My car is a daily driver.
I don't mind a firm ride.
The car will see snow a couple of times a year.
Reduction in fender gap would be a plus. Not sure if that is an issue for the snow. If so then I guess adjustable ride height would let me ride higher in the winter.
Something like an EDFC is nice so I can attempt to make the ride less harsh when I have passengers who don't get it. But I'm not stuck on Tein either.

What improvements can be expected?
Part of me wants something with crazy adjustability. But a more reasonable part of me (seems to have come with age) says I don't need all of that nor will I take the time to dial it in.

Any recomendations?
$1500-$2500 is my ballpark budget.

Someone on Nasioc is selling the Ohlins fixed perch adjustable struts for $1200 shipped with Group-N front tops. Add some RCE springs and you have a wicked setup.

Or get the Tein Flex's for the same price, with height adjustment, rebound adjustment, EDFC compatibility, and camber adjustablity. There's a reason "everybody" get the Tein stuff... it's really great hardware, for a really decent price.

Two words based on your requirements.

Tein Flex = $1500.

thanks guys.

Since Dan doesn't autocross or track his car, nor does he seem to want to mess with adjustments much, Teins are slight overkill. Aside from that, Ohlins inverted monotube struts are far superior to Tein struts as far as durability and reliability. The only reason people aren't flocking to that setup with the STi is that when new it costs well over $2000.

I agree, that the Tein Flex's are probably exactly what you want.

One thing, though, is that the Tein Flex, even on full height they won't be quite as high as the stock suspension. This probably won't cause an issue unless you start off-roading in snow, but I thought I'd bring it up.

With the Ohlins, you'll be stuck at that ride height (don't know what it is) and it may not give you enough clearance for snowy roads. That's something you'll want to double check.

Plus it's not height or camber adjustable. People aren't flocking because people that want aftermarket stuff usually want to be able to adjust it properly.

Besides, I'd rather pay $1400-1500 for *new* suspension, than $1200 for *used* struts with who know how many/how hard miles on 'em, and then still have to buy springs.

Also, Tein's are great right out of the box. Eric put Flex's on his '06 last year, I co-drove it on the factory settings, and won over-all PAX. My Tein SuperRace coilovers set to the factory heights was actually dead on corner-balanced on the scales... didn't have to adjust a thing. Dan can get a set of Flex's and just bolt 'em on, get a basic alignment, and go. Then later if there are changes he'd like to make to the settings, they're right there for him to play with.

As far as Ohlin's duribility and reliability... I don't see Dan punishing these things like a rally driver (not that I've every heard of a set of Tein's "wearing out"). Plus both companies will rebuild the dampers, and I'd bet Tein's a bit cheaper for the rebuild than Ohlins.

Except for the number of other reasons like, they don't come with top mounts, and they aren't height adjustable, etc...

I am as frugal as they come, and like deals on used stuff, but I wouldn't buy the Ohlins. inverted Monos as we already know from the stockers are typically not ideal daily driver struts, and they will most likely make noise eventually which is one of Dan's complaints.

Tein Flexs are a good streetable daily driver option with a proven track record.

If you want to go cheap, get a set of the no-names that Jeramiah or others have gotten for about $1000. Grouppe-S had them last I knew.

EDIT: Damn, Scott and I must be channeling each other today, he just types faster than I do...

Give up Kevin... When is the last time Scott and I agreed on something like this to this level of detail? You can't win. :)

Myles' first post after installing production RCE springs on his STi
Pics

Dan doesn't need adjustment- he will be perfectly able to get a proper street alignment with stock tophats, stock perches, and springs that lower the car about an inch. The used vs. new debate comes down to personal opinion basically. I bought my Prodrive suspension with 2 years of use on them, and I got another 75k with no decrease in performance. No reason not to expect the same from almost physically identical struts from another premium manufacturer. You are putting too much emphasis on track/autocross performance for someone who will not do either. I'm certainly not claiming that a fixed spring/strut combo is better or worse than Tein Flex as far as lap times. But if it were my STi that was a daily driver and not used for competition driving, I wouldn't care about height adjustment as long as I had properly matched springs and damping. What else matters on a street car?

So what if they don't come with tophats? Last time I checked you got a set when you bought the car, and the specific set for sale in the nasioc classified includes Group N front tops. You also suggest he should avoid inverted monotubes because of noise, then suggest he get pillowball camber plates...

Again, I'm not arguing against Flexes as astreetable option. Everybody knows they work fine. Like Scott, you're putting too much stock in what will be a better autocross setup when that is not one of Dan's considerations. In terms of ride comfort, and confidence when beating the car on backroads, I can't see any downside to the Ohlin/RCE combo for that purpose, can you? Aside from the fact that you didn't suggest it yourself? :p

You keep missing this part Kevin. The Ohlins aren't height adjustable.

And the height adjustability of the Teins isn't that 'crazy' so it doesn't really go against this statement either

I would't say I was missing it Nick... :p I just don't think it's a big issue for the snow. Most of us have driven lowered Subarus in winter up here, and how many of us had the DCCD advantage? Since Dan will mostly be heading to ski resorts in the snow, he's not going to be trailblazing through 12" of snow to get there. Yes, stock ride height (or simlar) is better than 25mm of lowering, but I don't think it's going to mean the difference between getting where he's going and not come winter.

Well, 25mm is enough to for me not to dismiss it outright after seeing where he will be driving in the winter -- which isn't just ski resorts, but also their cabin up in Incline. And sure, Incline is better then the City of Reno about plowing the streets, but streets not leading to ski resorts do tend to have to wait a little.

Nick could chime in here, since he's been on Flexs in the Truckee winters. And I don't think he messes with the ride height (probably right about a 25mm drop FWIW) and is stranded many times throughout the season, but stranded in a way where 10mm-15mm more clearance probably won't help either.

For me, its really tough to say either way, but I don't think you can dismiss the snow driving outright unless you've driven a lowered subaru *in Tahoe* since Reno doesn't get comparable snowfall.

Personally, I don't see the reason to buy used parts when perfectly acceptible new parts are available for the same price.

Pillowball noise <> inv. monotube clunking.

I have only been considering Dan's requirments, not track/autocross. please don't assume/accuse otherwise.

Here are his criteria.

0. My rears have started making a bunch of noise and I can feel something sticking back there when I come to a stop and everything settles.
1. I'm not concerned with autoX classes.
2. My car is a daily driver.
3. I don't mind a firm ride.
4. The car will see snow a couple of times a year.
5. Reduction in fender gap would be a plus. Not sure if that is an issue for the snow. If so then I guess adjustable ride height would let me ride higher in the winter.
6. Something like an EDFC is nice so I can attempt to make the ride less harsh when I have passengers who don't get it. But I'm not stuck on Tein either.
7. Part of me wants something with crazy adjustability. But a more reasonable part of me (seems to have come with age) says I don't need all of that nor will I take the time to dial it in.

Tein Flex meet all 0-7 IMHO. Even #7 is met if just set at factory settings to start with, and if he ever decides to adjust, he has that option.

I know little about the Ohlins, but guess they meet 1,2,3,7 for sure, 0. Probably end up making inverted mono klunks. 4. don't know what the ride height is, but it isn't adjustable, so maybe 1/2. 5. Unknown height, and same as #4 on the snow. 1/2 at best. 6. No

Dean, you yourself have said many times that the STi strut clunk comes from single bushings on the strut; you are assuming that the Ohlins have the same problem. I haven't seen anyone complain about noise from them, although there is of course a limited sample of real-world use to draw from.

Also, the RCE/Ohlin combo meets all of the requirements Dan listed, except that it doesn't have EDFC compatibility, which didn't seem all that important, and the possibility that it will be less capable in snow.

The three of you seem far more interested in shooting down my suggestion than in giving Dan options. But clearly, the Tein Flex is now the superior suspension solution for every Subaru owner on the planet, so why not just lock the thread now and submit Dan's order? :rolleyes:

totally off-topic, but why is my 'worst birthday ever' thrad the only related thread listed at the bottom of the page? :lol:

Kevin, all I'm trying to do is point out the potential pitfalls related to the snow aspect. I don't think you can dismiss it as easily as you are.

Furthermore, I haven't seen a compelling reason to buy one over the other, except he does somewhat desire ride height adjustability. What might be seen as acceptible comprimises for some, might not be for others. I know you don't like Tein, but it really might be the better option.

Go back and reread the thread buddy. You are the one who started critiqueing other's suggestions.

Scott, Nick and I were just reccomending the Teins. you are the one who started judging our suggestion as "slight overkill", claiming facts not in evidence "Ohlins inverted monotube struts are far superior to Tein struts as far as durability and reliability." and making wild unsupported suppositions. "The only reason people aren't flocking to that setup with the STi is that when new it costs well over $2000."

Not us.

rofl waffles

The whole used AND nasioc thing kinda scurrs me. Flexes sound like they are what I will be happy with and IF I want I can play with them.

Plus I don't mind giving Oaf some bidness.

+8000 for Flexes.

I can attest to streetability and reliability. I've had my set (Eric's set off his '04) for almost 40,000 miles and they still work as well as the day I bought them. They're fine for street driving, and they work great when you want to go canyon-carving, etc. They're not so stiff that you're screwed in the snow, either.

Going through Paul to boot makes it a no-brainer.

TEIN Flex. 'Nuff said. For the money I spent, I have to say that I don't think I could have done any better, for what I wanted.

I wanted ride height/dampening/spring preload adjustability, and a car that could make up for it's lack of power in the straights, while cornering. I have EXACTLY that! Ask the guys packing 300 ponies that can't catch me at auto-x... :D

I know Dan doesn't auto-x, but for what he has expressed that he wants/would like to do with the car, I don't know that there's many other options that DO fit his criteria. For the money, I haven't seen much that will beat the TEINs, and still offer RIDE HEIGHT ADJ, EDFC, and decent quality/durability.

Kevin says Dan doesn't need ride height adj. Do any of us NEED any of the affore mentioned shit we throw at our cars!? NO! We do WANT though! So who gives a crap what you need!? We need food, water, and shelter, not 300hp turbo awd cars, but it sure is nice isn't it?

Heh, yeah, I of all people in this thread know that. I just got screwed out of $190 by a nasioc retard myself.

That's it, I'm throwing my KW's in the dumpster and ordering Tein's tooo1!!1!

To be serious though, the Tein equipped cars I've ridden in have been just great on the road, and the best part is that they seem to be quiet and need no real attention once their mounted up.

So do I make up what I loose going from inverted stockers to non-inverted flexes?

Paul mentioned some soon to be released inverted teins for a little more mula but looking at the tein site it appears that the spring rates are way higher than the flexes.

Is the only advantage to inverted the reduction in unsprung weight or is it more complex than that?

I'm 95% set on the flexes now.

I have been driving on coilovers for over a year now. I have whiteline group 4 s with race-spec spring rates and damping, so my spring rates are 9k front, 8k rear. I think the tein flexes are 10k front, 8k rear, so a little stiffer.

At first driving on stiffer suspension was bearable, but I can now honestly say that it is driving me nuts (harrrr!). If you are not planning on competing with the car you should seriously think long and hard before you go with higher spring rates, especially with the crappy california roads.

If I could do it again I would go with something like whiteline group 4s with the standard spring rates.

Tein's use "standard" 2.5" ID springs, so it's trivial to change the rates, as long as you don't go too much harder or softer than the original rates so the dampers can be adjusted to match.

Eibach springs are about $60 each, so you could easily go to a 20% softer setup for about $250 if the 10/8 rates aren't ideal for you Dan.

As far as the "new inverted Teins"... I think those may be the Tein SuperRace coilovers (unless there's another set of inverted Teins coming). I bought a set of the SuperRaces about a month or so ago. They're *fantastic* but they're also retardely expensive, and have far more adjustment than you'll need: caster/camber front top mounts, camber rear top mounts, inverted double adjustable 50mm struts, independent right height/spring preload adjustment, dual EDFC capable, 12/9 spring rates.

The Tein Flex's are more than enough for a street driven car, and half the price of the SuperRace coilovers.

http://www.bilstein.com/tech.php

http://suspensionparts.info/archive/...php/t-273.html

Essentially, with a monotube you get more precise low-speed damping, and more consistent damping rates as they heat up. With twin tube designs, the nitrogen and oil are mixing, and can foam up easily which affects damping. Also, monotube dampers have more oil volume to deal with increased heat.

Inverting monotubes is done to both decrease unsprung weight and strengthen the unit, at the expense of slightly greater total weight for the unit. It is something you will normally only see on strut McStrut suspensions, as there are no lateral loads on a standard shock and therefore the extra weight brings no advantage of strength.

I think they were the monotubes. but there isn't a suby application listed on the site. paul said a couple of hundred more not twice as much so it's def not the super races. I'd be all over those or a set of fully adjustable ohlins or KWs if I was competing.

The new Teins are called "winding master Mono Flex" and basically, they're a single adjustable version of Scott's dampers, only way less expensive. I would definitely choose those over standard Flexes if the price isn't unreasonable, which seems to be the case.

Just cut y0 springs!

seriously though. I've also ridden in a lot of "Flex" Cars they are nice.

I'm with MikeK in the department. Having gone back to my stock setup I love my cush ride. I really liked the Eibachs I had. If I end up keeping my car I won't be putting coilovers on it again, even though I will track it. Plus I remember doing thunderhill on my eibachs and keeping up with all kinds of horrible drivers on coilovers by just driving a good line.

I thought I was a hardcore motherfucker but the stiff ride just go to me after 6 months or so.

So in conclusion. I don't like coilovers, although they will get the max performance. It sounds like you are replacing you whole suspension anyways so I doubt you will be getting stock struts again since you'd have to buy used ones or crazy high prices for new ones.

Twin tube, and monos can both be good depending on your needs/requirements.

And there is actually data to support twin tubes being better for daily drivers due to their better ability to respond to normal road "noise" such as truck ruts, etc. where monos might tend to "bounce"

http://www.whiteline.com.au/faqshock...haracteristics.

Beleive it or not, there was a good article on this in a recent Compact Car as well.

For your needs, I would stick to the Flex.

Hey Dan, don't forget, I've got some sweet Koni's for sale still:

http://www.seccs.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4932

:lol:

Yeah I was looking for it, both here and online, and couldn't find it. They did a superb job of explaining the differences between them over two installments.

uh, I think I'll pass.

My civic was stiff. I had koni yellows with some nuespeed race springs. I have no idea what the rates were. doesn't matter I guess because the scoob weighs what feels llike a thouzillion pounds more. But the civic was very dampened (i cant speel so fuck off).

You'd go over the back side of a high spot on the road and the car would drop to follow the road but there was very little rebound bounce. Unlike all of the other cut spring rice buckets back in the day.

I'm still working on purchase authorization from the wife. We just signed a contract to have a pool installed and accounts have been frozen by her :)

I have Tein Flex's now for two winters. I raised them slightly out of the box. The only issues with lowering a car in the snow is with wet snow during the day and freezing in the wheel wells at night. This only happened to me once and it sucked. That said, the ride change from stock on the softest setting is still much stiffer, but not as bouncy over washboard snow as the stock setup.

The only time I am stuck in the snow is when the streets are deeper than the cars clearance with heavy snow (pretty much the same rule of thumb for any car). I've driven it in light snow where the snow was coming up over the hood. I've also high centered in 6" of heavy wet mush.

I'm with Tyson. . .

Having run coilovers for a while and taken a step back to "street performance" springs (I have Prodrive blues on), I can say I prefer a moderate spring/strut setup to coilovers. I really didn't end up using the coilovers' adjustable bits, and in retrospect the street quality vs. autox performance may not have been in my favor (way more time on the street, obviously). I forced myself to get used to the rough ride, but after a couple weeks on the Prodrives, I was pretty pleased with my step back. I'll be adding a set of adjustable struts when they exist for MY'05 to maintain a good street/autox balance.

Since autox isn't an issue, you really don't need coilovers. Also, keep in mind that the dampers on coilovers may need to be serviced more often than you'd need to replace OEM struts. I'd say grab a set of Prodrive springs and some new rear struts. Even if you're just replacing with another set of OEMs, you may find it a better personal value for your money.

What do you kids think of this setup?
http://www.iwsti.com/forums/showpost...&postcount=174

I was reading that same thread this morning on iwsti...

That's not far off from my setup, with the exception of the x brace, alk and a few different brands. All In all, my car hadles well on the track, street and auto-x with just a few tweeks here and there. I can imagine the X Brace and ALK make a great difference on the track, and I'd like to try them, however they are illegal in my autox class.

If you're just tracking the car though, that is an awesome setup.

The key thing in that post may well be the:
Whiteline 27-29 front sway, stiff setting.

The other components are pretty standard.

I wonder if the Strano bar would make it even better...

I don't think the Strano is needed on a car already running stiff coilovers. On stock suspension, sure the stiff bar helps fight the camber curve issues, but when you reduce the throw from 4" to like 2", the Strano is probably too stiff.

I'd be curious as to how it would compare to KW V3 race rates with 22f/24r or similar sway bars.

The Tarmac IIs (RCE spec'd KWs) look promising.

They're at the top of my wish list.

I just need to pick some spring rates for them.

Just thought I would post a picture of my suspension pile in my room, waiting for spring to be installed. http://photos-128.ak.facebook.com/ip...12128_7762.jpg

We have custom spec'd KW's as well if anyone needs some :)

Sorry shameless plug but it's true, we have a bunch of KW's instock and have been testing on them on our cars for some time.

Mike

Mike, I'd be extremely interested in a set that would work the best in your opinion with my OBS... PM me!

What are the differences betwen your spec'd KWs and the V3 KWs?

As far as I can tell the tarmac IIs have differenct valving, external reservoirs (on the fronts) linear springs front and rear, double perch rings to lock rather than a single with a set screw.

I remember you had some KW's on the race car with PDE camber plates.

I ordered the T2s with 400/350 rates and Group N rear tops. I'm looking into PDE camber plates for the fronts.