Subaru Enthusiasts Car Club of the Sierras

Subaru Enthusiasts Car Club of the Sierras (https://www.seccs.org/forums/index.php)
-   Technical Chat (https://www.seccs.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=11)
-   -   AP Map (https://www.seccs.org/forums/showthread.php?t=5190)

100_Percent_Juice 2006-11-01 08:51 AM

AP Map
 
Ive had an AP for about 3 weeks now and the only map that works for my car is the 91oct Stage 2 v130. Every other map that I tried makes the car run like crap. My mods are a catless TBE, drop in K&N and an hks ssqv. Have any of you been using a better map for this setup?

Kevin M 2006-11-01 08:59 AM

Make sure you are using a Cobb-supplied map that is meant for a catless TBE and stock intake. If you have any that didn't come from Cobb, toss 'em. The exception would come from any custom tunes you had, but of course if you had one you wouldn't be having issues. ;)

Dean 2006-11-01 09:22 AM

That sounds like the correct map. If you read the readme file for it, it should say exactly what the requirements are for that map.

If I recall correctly, stage 2 is TBE.

However being catless may have even less than expected back pressure. I would suggest you do whatever you plan if anything for the intake, and then get a custom tune. You might also consider putting back on the stock BOV as I believe the HKS is a vent to atmosphere which is not ideal for Subaarus.

qksubi 2006-11-01 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS
Make sure you are using a Cobb-supplied map that is meant for a catless TBE and stock intake. If you have any that didn't come from Cobb, toss 'em. The exception would come from any custom tunes you had, but of course if you had one you wouldn't be having issues. ;)

Kevin how would he have a map on his AP that was'nt from Cobb unless he had a protune!
And he could have a protune and still have issues! Stick to the nonturbo advice ;)

100_Percent_Juice 2006-11-01 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by qksubi
Kevin how would he have a map on his AP that was'nt from Cobb unless he had a protune!
And he could have a protune and still have issues! Stick to the nonturbo advice ;)


Actually the person I bought the Cobb AP from had a bunch of STX, chronos, and PDX maps on it. Some were made for 92 octane. ;)

qksubi 2006-11-01 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 100_Percent_Juice
Ive had an AP for about 3 weeks now and the only map that works for my car is the 91oct Stage 2 v130. Every other map that I tried makes the car run like crap. My mods are a catless TBE, drop in K&N and an hks ssqv. Have any of you been using a better map for this setup?

Dean is right the off the self map is for there catted TBE and stock air box! You need a fuel pump and a protune for the car to work poperly!

Kevin M 2006-11-01 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by qksubi
Kevin how would he have a map on his AP that was'nt from Cobb unless he had a protune!
And he could have a protune and still have issues! Stick to the nonturbo advice ;)

Apparently, the previous owner found a way to put non-Cobb maps on there...

qksubi 2006-11-01 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 100_Percent_Juice
Actually the person I bought the Cobb AP from had a bunch of STX, chronos, and PDX maps on it. Some were made for 92 octane. ;)

You should never use a map that was not tuned for car and sorry Kevein I for that factor of the used AP!!

Kevin M 2006-11-01 09:39 AM

Used or not, you can get non-Cobb maps for them. But no worries, I don't have to go to the moon to know it isn't made of cheese. ;)

qksubi 2006-11-01 09:43 AM

Speaking of which there is a picture of the AP on the COBB sight!
http://cobbtuning.com/categories/?id=2208

qksubi 2006-11-01 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS
Used or not, you can get non-Cobb maps for them. But no worries, I don't have to go to the moon to know it isn't made of cheese. ;)

Has someone hacked the software :?:

100_Percent_Juice 2006-11-01 09:52 AM

The only reason I tried the other maps is because the guy I bought it from had the same setup as me, the difference was the 92 octane. which I guess I can get in town here at the gas station on longley and colbert if I become a member.

100_Percent_Juice 2006-11-01 09:52 AM

Does anyone in town here have a TBE catless map they could send me?

Forgotten 2006-11-01 10:03 AM

I ran Cobb's Stage 2 91 Cali map on my catless Stage 2 with an HKS SSQV on my car for a year and a half. It ran like a champ the whole time. You can download that one off the cobb website. Maybe it's the intake thats throwing it out of wack.

qksubi 2006-11-01 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forgotten
I ran Cobb's Stage 2 91 Cali map on my catless Stage 2 with an HKS SSQV on my car for a year and a half. It ran like a champ the whole time. You can download that one off the cobb website. Maybe it's the intake thats throwing it out of wack.

It might have felt fine but If you threw on the dyno Im pretty sure it was'nt with out a fuel pump!

100_Percent_Juice 2006-11-01 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 100_Percent_Juice
Ive had an AP for about 3 weeks now and the only map that works for my car is the 91oct Stage 2 v130. Every other map that I tried makes the car run like crap. My mods are a catless TBE, drop in K&N and an hks ssqv. Have any of you been using a better map for this setup?

I never said my car is running like crap and I dont have an intake. My car runs really good. I was mainly asking if there was a better map for my setup. This thread took a quick turn left somewhere.

Dean 2006-11-01 10:15 AM

Eric, any ProTune map for the right ECU can be downloaded to the AP and then flashed to the car. That is how a custom tune gets there. And people are sharing their ProTune maps on different web sites.

That said, I would not use anything other than the Cobb maps which are very conservatively mapped, or one built for my configuration.

Anything from other sources is a crap shoot that might cost you an engine. No thanks.

And it sounds like the COBB 91 Octane stage 2 map is working fine, so why are you looking for another map? Without a custom tune, I wouldn't push it past that map, and as I said, that map may even be a problem without a cat. But hey, at least it works.

Kevin M 2006-11-01 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by qksubi
It might have felt fine but If you threw on the dyno Im pretty sure it was'nt with out a fuel pump!

Stock turbo WRXs did okay without an upgraded fuel pump. Peak power is a bit lower but you can tune them safely.

Kevin M 2006-11-01 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 100_Percent_Juice
This thread took a quick turn left somewhere.

Welcome to SECCS. :lol:

Kevin M 2006-11-01 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dean
That said, I would not use anything other than the Cobb maps which are very conservatively mapped, or one built for my configuration.

Anything from other sources is a crap shoot that might cost you an engine. No thanks.

Werd.

cody 2006-11-01 10:56 AM

I agree with Kevin and Dean. Stick with the Canned CA91 stage 2 map from Cobb, or better yet, get Protuned.

I'd never heard that an upgraded fuel pump is a viable power mod for a stage 2 WRX (stock turbo). Would you want to get re-tuned for it?

Forgotten 2006-11-01 11:42 AM

Dean and Kevin got it right. I read your post a little to early in the morning. I'm of to go get a fuel pump!

Kevin M 2006-11-01 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cody
Would you want to get re-tuned for it?

Yes. A bigger pump won't throw off your current tune, but it will enable you to run more boost and/or timing from your torque peak and up in the power band by permitting richer AFRs and/or supporting an increase in VE through other means, such as boost.

cody 2006-11-01 11:53 AM

Interesting.

Kevin M 2006-11-01 12:03 PM

Remember, the max flow rate for an injector depends on several variables- max duty cycle, gamma on time, and fuel pressure. Injectors are like the spray nozzle on a garden hose. Max flow is determined by how fast you can squeeze it off and on, how big the hole is, and how much water pressure you have. If the faucet is only turned on halfway, you get less flow than if it's all the way on, even though you are opening the same nozzle with the same frequency and duration.

Stock fuel pump = faucet half open.

MattR 2006-11-01 12:06 PM

Everyone knows Ecutek is better anyway. Such features as No Tuners anywhere, no map switching and little or no customer support. Woohoo.. :lol:

Also, I would agree that adding a bigger pump doesn't require a retune, but it enables you to go further with a future tune, with increased perameters.etc.

cody 2006-11-01 12:27 PM

lol

MattR 2006-11-01 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cody
lol


I can get away with it, I described my current situation with ET. :lol:

cody 2006-11-01 01:02 PM

Doesn't Mike @ Gruppe-S still tune ECUTek?

sperry 2006-11-01 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS
Remember, the max flow rate for an injector depends on several variables- max duty cycle, gamma on time, and fuel pressure. Injectors are like the spray nozzle on a garden hose. Max flow is determined by how fast you can squeeze it off and on, how big the hole is, and how much water pressure you have. If the faucet is only turned on halfway, you get less flow than if it's all the way on, even though you are opening the same nozzle with the same frequency and duration.

Stock fuel pump = faucet half open.

All true, except for that thing called a "fuel pressure regulator" that ensures there's a linear mapping of MAP to fuel pressure.

You only need a bigger fuel pump when your injectors are able to draw more fuel than the pump can provide, which in turn means a drop off of pressure at the rail below what the FPR is attempting to regulate to.

Kevin M 2006-11-01 01:48 PM

Pressure != flow. People replace fuel pumps because, at peak boost, fuel flow volume can drop off at high duty cycles and peak fuel pressure. Hence STi owners always being encouraged to replace their fuel pumps feeding their stock ~550cc/min injectors, whereas WRX owners do okay with stock pumps feeding their stock ~420 cc/min injectors.

sperry 2006-11-01 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS
Pressure != flow. People replace fuel pumps because, at peak boost, fuel flow volume can drop off at high duty cycles and peak fuel pressure. Hence STi owners always being encouraged to replace their fuel pumps feeding their stock ~550cc/min injectors, whereas WRX owners do okay with stock pumps feeding their stock ~420 cc/min injectors.

Fuel flow is entirely determined by injector duty cycle and pressure at the rail. The amount of fuel flowing out of an injector is based on how long the injector is open, and how much pressure there is behind the injector.

I don't see how a larger pump on a stock car can change anything except how much fuel is cycled past the rails and back into the gas tank.

Apparently a stock STi that's tuned for more boost, and running its injectors at much higher rates to compensate, can run out of pressure in the rails. Since the stock mapping never runs the injectors at 100% DC, it's not a problem on a stock car. But if you're getting up there in DC, then you can run into the need for a bigger pump on an otherwise "stock" STi. i.e. the stock STi injectors are too big for the stock fuel pump if you tune it beyond stock power levels.

Kevin M 2006-11-01 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sperry
Fuel flow is entirely determined by injector duty cycle and pressure at the rail. The amount of fuel flowing out of an injector is based on how long the injector is open, and how much pressure there is behind the injector.

I don't see how a larger pump on a stock car can change anything except how much fuel is cycled past the rails and back into the gas tank.

Apparently a stock STi that's tuned for more boost, and running its injectors at much higher rates to compensate, can run out of pressure in the rails. Since the stock mapping never runs the injectors at 100% DC, it's not a problem on a stock car. But if you're getting up there in DC, then you can run into the need for a bigger pump on an otherwise "stock" STi. i.e. the stock STi injectors are too big for the stock fuel pump if you tune it beyond stock power levels.

That's what I was saying. Stock WRX injectors can't outrun the stock fuel pump, but stock STi injectors can. If you had an infinitely capable fuel pump, you could make your injectors "bigger" by cranking up the fuel pressure, which increases the volume of fuel sprayed for each millisecond it is open. That's limited in how true it is in practice though, because you run into issues with the fuel lines, spray patterns, poor atomization, etc. Plus the part where there is no such thing as an infinite fuel pump...

Also, the other factor in how much flow an injector is capable of is the size of the nozzle. The only difference between WRX "blues" and STi "pinks" is the size and number of holes in the injector nozzle. The plastic and the solenoid are the same.

cody 2006-11-01 04:33 PM

Where's that "the more you know" graphic Matt posted not to long ago? :)

100_Percent_Juice 2006-11-01 07:59 PM

:~: So...fuel pumps...

you obviously dont shampoo...
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y62...spaceghost.gif

Kevin M 2006-11-01 08:25 PM

Danish!

qksubi 2006-11-01 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dean
Eric, any ProTune map for the right ECU can be downloaded to the AP and then flashed to the car. That is how a custom tune gets there. And people are sharing their ProTune maps on different web sites.

That said, I would not use anything other than the Cobb maps which are very conservatively mapped, or one built for my configuration.

Anything from other sources is a crap shoot that might cost you an engine. No thanks.

And it sounds like the COBB 91 Octane stage 2 map is working fine, so why are you looking for another map? Without a custom tune, I wouldn't push it past that map, and as I said, that map may even be a problem without a cat. But hey, at least it works.

Dean I have had the AP on my cars Im well aware on how it works remember streettuner and thats why I went to a protune 2yrs ago Also I have had many discussions with mike warfield about this and sharing maps isa very bad idea because no two cars are that a like also who is to say that the tuner that built the maps did a good job thats why I said that sharing maps is not a good idea!!

Dean 2006-11-02 07:31 AM

Eric, I was not busting your chops, I know you have had an AP, and street tuner on two cars now, but you appeared to be confused how they could be using other tuner's maps... Sorry if I misunderstood your question...
Quote:

Originally Posted by qksubi
Has someone hacked the software :?:

And I agree, using any agressively tuned map for someone else's car on yours is a bad idea.

qksubi 2006-11-02 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 100_Percent_Juice
:~: So...fuel pumps...

you obviously dont shampoo...
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y62...spaceghost.gif

Yes if you plan on gettting a protune!! Cody its not a power mod its so your #3 doesnt run too lean on boost after protune its a 89.99 safty net!!

100_Percent_Juice 2006-11-02 11:06 AM

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y62...J/FuelPump.jpg

sperry 2006-11-02 11:32 AM

woah... :lol:

cody 2006-11-02 11:41 PM

That's pretty funny. :lol:

qksubi 2006-11-05 05:57 AM

The new AP at rallysport!
http://www.rallysportdirect.com/shop...bo-p-2857.html


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 12:16 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
All Content Copyright Subaru Enthusiasts Car Club of the Sierras unless otherwise noted.