To snow tire or not to snow tire, das ist kvestion
 

So who runs dedicated snows and who runs on all-seasons around here?

I don't go to the ski hills or anything, but I do drive to Tahoe and down the Eastern Sierra a good bit during winter. I've had snows in the past, everything from hakkapellittas with full studs to glacier grips on other cars. I've felt that they were overkill on an awd Suby, save for when I was commuting to UNR from Truckee everyday during winter. Since I'm not doing that anymore, I'm looking for input. I drove on my re-92's in some snows this spring when I first got my WRX and was not pleased with their performance, though they got me there, the grip was terrible.

I've been thinking of an approach for this winter. Either:

1) Get full non-studded snows for the OEM wheels, swapping them with some suitable tires for autox in the late spring when I finally get started. Get aftermarket wheels for DD purposes and pimp style the rest of the year.

2) Get all seasons, more well-rounded, but driveable all year, on some aftermarket wheels, keep OEM wheels for autox duty. I don't need to be pulling g's on the street.

What have you all been running and how suitable/ satisfactory have they been?

I basically just want traction during winter, versatility during summer (some dirt roads will happen, also roadtrips) my DD tires don't need to be super high perf, but I want to be stable and have fun while driving. I also don't want to have to break beads every season at the tire shop, and conversely don't want to run around all summer on heavy sipes and tread making noise and getting worn out before snow comes back again.

If I get some wintery tires for the OEM wheels, I'll still have to have the tires swapped every fall/spring from autox perf tires to winters, so...

The Toyo Proxes 4's I've run on the stock rims for the two winters that I've lived here worked okay in ice/snow. They were a little scary when attempting to stop on ice or in deep snow, but for a high performance all season, they rocked. They are excellent in the rain and dry too and wear like iron.

I'm finally replacing them with Dunlp Wintersport 3D's though. Should be another tire you could run year round with good results but comparitively they'll be much better in the snow and a little less grippy in the dry.

I've had snow tires the last few years, and they definitely make life easier in the winter. If you get a performance snow tire, you'll still get around fine in the snow but you'll be happier when the roads are clear. Something like a Dunlop Wintersport M3 or Blizzak LM25 is great, or the Hankook W300 if you're on a lower budget. I've used the W300 for the last 2 winters and I'm pretty happy with them.

I think you could get by on a good all season, but it won't be as safe when the roads are covered in white stuff.

Where are you getting the Hankook's? Anyone ever use the Nokians, the WR's? Price is a factor, the 215 45 17 size makes them a little more spendy.

Discount tire is where I got them originally. They had a local store at the time, but you'd have to get them online now. Nokians are very nice, but I've never wanted to spend that much money on them.

http://www.discounttiredirect.com/di...09&rd=17&ar=45

Looks like you would have to run 225/45/17, they don't come in 215 width.

Yeah, if I was to spend that kind of cash, it would be Nokian all the way.

I'm going to see what Mill st tire can quote me on some Nokians. I'll post up their quotes.

I can't remember what I run, you'll have to remind me :)

Of course they stopped making those budget Pirellis. They were great the few times I ran them in the snow. BTW how's that little slut of an OB treating you?

I had to get the AC re-gassed, but otherwise it's been great. Plus I don't want to stab myself in the face every time I drive it, unlike the STi. :)

Coilovers a little rough on the gooch, eh? Glad to hear mom's old ride is behaving.

I'll be by the tire shop soon after I get a haircut, I'll post up some prices of the Nokians. I've had good luck with Mill st tire in the past for tires only. Alignments, not so much.

When I had my STi, I bought another set of rims for winter use. I ran Blizzak Revo's and absolutely loved them for ice and snow use. On dry pavement they were like driving around on a gummy worm.

The only time I ever slide on the ice was when there was shear ice with a little bit of fresh powdered snow on top of it. But then again, I don't know of any tire combination that won't have a problem with that scenario.

Yeah, see the gummi worm thing is what I don't want, especially since we never know if winter will be snowy or not. Who knows how much snow we'll actually get. I'm hoping for realistic prices on the hakka RSi/ WR/ WRG2...we'll see. The other common ones are ~$115's to $140's already, so hopefully these will fall within this range.

I plan on driving to Yosemite frequently this winter (down 80 to 99 then in to the hwy 120 west entrance) so well rounded but very able in the snow is my goal. The RSi's are supposed to be good and low noise for the type of tire....or tyre.

Search for "Snow Ice tires". Back in 2005 I summarized TR and CR data on Snows. The Nokians didn't cut it.

Even the best AS can't touch the worst dedicated snows in snow/ice performance, but many are acceptable for light snow on maintained roads. Snows are a must in the deeper stuff or ice & hills.

I've run both the ASX and Nero all seasons on the A4 for a few years and like them both. Compared to my W300s (Good) or Debbie's Revos(great) in the snow though, they are only fair, but acceptable.

A quick review of TR data shows that probably the best UHP AS tire remains the Pirelli PZero Nero M+S. I had these on the A4 before the ASXs and they were better, but at the time I was replacing them they were almost twice the price. Now they are much more reasonably priced and they do very well in the dry as well.

I'm pretty sure Nokian WRs are going to be closer to $170 in your size. When I priced them a couple of years ago they were quite a bit more than the other options. The RSi will be even more I bet.

I don't know if they're still on sale, but this is from my Tire Rack Invoice a few months ago:


Item Description Availability Qty. Price Each Item Total

205/55VR16 Dunlop SP Winter Sport 3D IN STOCK 4 $96.00 $384.00



Item Description Availability Qty. Price Each Item Total

GY/DU REGISTRATION CARD IN STOCK 1 N/C N/C


Item(s) Total:
$384.00
Sales Tax: $28.32
Excise Tax: $0.00
State Waste Tire Fund Fee: $4.00
Shipping: $0.00


Order Total:
$416.32

If you are forced to regularly drive 80 during a storm, snows are the thing to have. Get a set of Revo 1s on closeout and be done. If it is your choice and you can wait a few hours or so for the storm to blow through and the plows to get it well groomed, good all seasons are fine.

Hmmm.... tires for the 06 size are few and far between. Tirerack has 8 to choose from.

Dunlop wintersport M3's are $127 ea in my 215 45 17, maybe I should score some RS 6 spokes so I can run 205 55 16's again. Cheaper and more choices. They don't offer the 3D in my size.

Nokian WR's in my size are $181+$15 shipping each....eeep!

Dean, where are you getting your revo's? I'd like to check them out.

EDIT: oops, tirerack, I see, but only in 225 45....curses! I really didn't want to go up in width for my winter tire, but damn, nobody offers much choice in the stock WRX size. This is requiring too much thought.

Don't worry bout the extra width. Unless you are using Rally spikes, wider and more sipes is better than narrower. The narrow thing is a crock not supported by science. And 225 is the stock size for the STI which is basically the same weight, etc. The alternative is to pick up some used stocker 16s and run 205s! That may actually be a good idea as 16" snows are cheaper by $30 or so.

If you plan to keep this car for any length of time, plan on 2-3 sets of wheels or more. 1 for snows (16s if they fit), 1 for Autocross/sticky street Azeniz 615 or RE01, 1 for dedicated street/rain SPTs, ES100s, etc., and 1 for track tires.

I got Kumho ASXs last year only to find that they suck the everything off of the anything in 1/4" of snow or less.

Ended up with some studable (which I haven't) 'Kooks as dedicated snow tires. I'll have to see what sort.

I'd kind of say with the off and on of our winters sometimes, just go snow..

I put mine on when the chance snow was just about a definite yes - but I'm running stock sizes (16") on both the winter and the "every other season" wheels - so it's easy(ier) for me to switch..

The 06 wrx comes with the 4 pot calipers I think. If that's the case then the 02-05 16" Impreza rims won't clear without a spacer. 98-01 2.5RS rims will bolt right on though.

The narrow thing is not a crock Dean. The idea is that narrower tires generate more psi of pressure which helps drive them through loose snow and onto the hard surface underneath where you get actual traction. Essentially it's to reduce "hydroplaning' on snow. Trouble is, when you are on ice, it's not so helpful.

Oh and +1 for the Dunlop snow tires. I heartily recommend dedicated winters around here.

It used to be true with older design small blocked snow tires, but not true for the newer bread of siped snows.

I am looking for the research that I believe both Michelin and Pirelli did. I have had a number of discussion about this with Pirelli engineers at Audi events. Snow is not water and it cannot be displaced in the same manner. Street cars are not rally cars. Street cars work in the world of relatively static friction for tires whereas rally cars are most often in dynamic friction. There is no "digging" down to the traction unless the tire is already sliding.

On a street tire, it is all about sipes and bitting the surface as the tire flattens onto the surface. within reason, the more sipes and surface area, the better. Also, more pressure is more likely to create localized melting and hydroplaning like an ice skate blade. Frozen water, despite public perception is not extremely slippery, it is the water on top of it that is EXTREMELY slippery.

On a 3000 pound car, 225 size snows are fine.

Here is one useful quote:

Narrow is good for deep snow due to resistance and tendency for the wider tire to plow, but most of us seldom if ever deal with true deep snow as it is as likely to high center many Subaru models and other passenger cars. We deal mostly with plowed roads with packed snow/ice an/or up to 1" of wed/dry snow. These conditions are where siping rules.

Here we go. This is it so long as I can verify that the steelies will fit. Dunlop 3D's 205 55 16 on steelies for $580 mounted & balanced. 24.6" OD vs 24.9" OD. Beats $508 tires only for Revo's in 225 45 17. Tire rack's catalog offers a 15" wheel/snowtire pkg for my car. I doubt its correct, but 15x6's e45 that fit over the 4 pots? I've got to ask on that one. Sound plausible?

No, 15s won't clear 4 pots. Highly unlikely anyway.

I think I'm more partial to the 16" setup anyway.

EDIT: someone on nabisco busted out this piece of searchery, post 3. I was surprised:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1140977

I've always used the Dunlop M3's. They have been great up here. I'll be running the same on the BMW this winter in the oh so unfortunate Run Flat model. I really hate that this car did not come with a spare tire.

I drove a co-worker's 335xi yesterday. All I can say about your lack of spare tire is "quit whining you ninny!" :P That car is awesome, who cares if it's spare-less!

You're right. It just sucks that there are so few options right now and all the RFT's are a premium over the standard tires. Fortunately Dunlop does make the M3's in a Run flat.

Dean, did you come across anything on the web that supports the "wider is better" snow tire theory? Personally, I think you are right but I'm wondering if there's any test results out there that show the numbers. I'm discussing snow tires with someone on a car audio forum and everyone else is saying that narrower is better.

http://www.tirerack.com/winter/tech/...jsp?techid=126

I would agree with the Tirerack quote above for fresh snow. If you are driving in fresh snow, narrower will always be better. However, most of the time we drive on packed snow. This is when I believe a wider snow tire will give you better traction.

Other than the Michelin engineer I already quoted, not really.

Here is something siping specific. http://www.accidentreconstruction.co...03/103003b.asp

Again, I want to be specific. It is my understanding from the Pirelli engineer I have talked to that in our normal open highway conditions in CA and NV, not deep untamed back roads, that it is about the amount if siping that you can put on the surface of the snow/ice that is important, not the "digging" and higher PSI of surface area of a narrower tire.

I have been unable to find any scientific data to support or disprove this, only anecdotal and unsupported narrower is better statements and the siping comments from the Michelin engineer and article I provided.

It would be really nice if TR would take one of their BMWs and put 245, 225, 205 and 185s of the same modern siped winter tire and do some of their tests at the ice rink.

My guess is that there is a sweet spot at some PSI that creates the optimal clamping force as the sipes close as they come onto the surface.

I know it's anecdotal, but I would say that we could find conditions locally in the winter that would favor both wider and narrower tires without going to extremes. Basically if there is loose ice/snow/slush/whatever that can build up and prevent getting a lot of pressure on compacted ice or pavement, narrower is better. But on smooth ice or dense packed snow, I'd want wider.

I agree. As with most things, "it depends" on the circumstances.

I'll anecdotal you. ;)

+1

This is something that rally teams struggle with all the time in snow rally. Conditions vary so much, so easily, that the "ideal" tire for one mile can also be the worst possible tire for the next. Slush performance is very different from ice, which is very different from packed snow, which is very different from a light dusting over ice.

IMO, for winter tires, you should pick the tire that performs the best in the most dangerous condition, which to me is ice. A tire that's great on ice but passable in slush is far better than some slush racers that will get you crashed on ice. With the exception of the Tahoe folks, 90% of our winter driving here in Reno is on dry or damp streets... it's only in the morning after some fresh and before the plows that we really need "snow" tires. And then, the most dangerous roads we see in Reno are the roads after fresh snow is packed into ice by traffic (which is even worse when that's followed by more fresh snow).

So go for a tire that performs in those conditions. And for ice, I have to agree with Dean, basic physics seem to indicate the more sipped surface area you can get down on the ice, the better. Even if it's not "ideal" for cutting through the new snow to get to the ice or road underneath, it's still going to be the best traction for the really harry situations, and "not bad" in the rest.

Or, you could just get a set of these:

http://www.seccs.org/images/misc/traction_from_god.jpg

The problem with the TFG is that they have absolutely no feedback. There is absolutely no evidence that they work, you just have to go on faith that they will stick. Without that faith, you may well find yourself in the bottom of the deepest ditch.

Yeah, they could really crucify you during the slightest bit of heretic driving....

I think its going to be Dunlop 3D's in 205 55 16 on steelies....$580 mounted and balanced. Hopefully I can get around shipping and pick them up in Sparks. Its a good deal, and I can save my OEM wheels for autox next year while picking up some pimpy wheels for every day.

Those from TireRack? I believe they've moved out to Patrick by now... no more Sparks pickup. Gotta drive out 80 to their new warehouse.

Yep, some of my tire shop customers from Napa keep whining about having to drive "so much farther." I tell them it still beats paying and waiting for shipping from Indiana.

Crap, I had no idea they'd moved. But yeah, so long as I spend less on gas than shipping....

I am going to go out there to get my wife some tires. I could possibly get another set for some gas money.

When do you plan on going Juice? I may contribute for a couple of rotors and some ATE if they have it.

probably within the next two weeks or so. I'm not really in a rush but I will be heading out there sometime. I guess I could go earlier if need be.

no rush for me either, just need em' a week or so before the oct autox.