Anyone willing to help look at my Koni Insert?
 

Hi guys, any chance anybody would help me take a look at my passenger side front strut? I think the bolt on the bottom came loose or out of the strut. My koni insert is thunking around in there, i.e. I get a bang every time I go over a bump, frost heave, etc. I just had my car down at Alfa & Subaru in Sacramento getting a head gasket replacement and they said they fixed this problem, but on the way home, it started happening again. They said my strut had banged through the bottom of my assembly and the bolt had fallen out, so they put a bunch of large washers on to hold it in place along with a new bolt, and maybe that's the problem, as the bolt might not reach the insert now. I have never done strut install/removal and don't have a spring compressor. I cut and pasted this (below) from nasioc where another guy had the same problem and i just figure the shop might not have locktited this bolt. The thread and excerpt are below explaining what i'm talking about. There would be beer involved for whoever could help? The Koni insert could just be dead too, and i might need a new one.

Thanks, and see below. the thread has pics of how to install the konis, and the excerpt explains what I think may be the case.

The silver washer one is the messed up clunking one. The other one is the driver side, and is how all the others looked. I'm thinking the bolt isn't in the insert threads.
Mark

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1219607

Have been running with these inserts for about 3 years now, and absolutely love them. The only issue I had and would give warning about is that medium strength Locktite should be used on the bottom bolt (the one that holds the bottom of the insert to the bottom of the strut body)

I developed knocking several months after installation and realized one of these bolts had come loose and fell out. The insert was freely bouncing within the strut body. Had to get another bolt from Koni and the Locktited them all - had not had a problem since. I 'll also say that to reinsert the bolt once the struts are on the car is a pain but possible. The car has t be jacked up with wheel loaded (not suspended in air) so that the strut is in compression and the bottom of the insert is as close to the bottom of the strut body as possible. Even then we had to get a long bolt of very similar pattern/thread pitch to catch the bottom of the insert and bring it down far enough to the hole so that we could then insert the regular Koni holding bolt (but now with locktite )

good luck all
sav
http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/m...ssembly005.jpg
http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/m...ssembly006.jpg
http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/m...ssembly001.jpg
http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/m...ssembly002.jpg
http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/m...ssembly003.jpg
http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/m...ssembly004.jpg

Your first problem is taking the car to A&S. I wouldn't trust them to engineer a safe solution to your strut coming apart.

If the housing was damaged, you either need a competent welder/fabricator to weld you up a repair, or you need to replace the housing. Also, make sure to inspect the strut insert itself for damage if it's been bouncing around in the housing.

Washers and bolts sound like a real hacked solution for something like a strut. Keep in mind, if that has a catastrophic failure, you're going to crash the car.

Are they a bad shop? They seemed to have lots of performance subaru stuff and the owner was doing a sti swap into his RS and seemed pretty knowledgeable, but hey, they could be bad, i don't know. http://www.subaruspecialists.com/

As far as the strut and washers go, i'll get under there and take some pictures tonight and post them tomorrow morning.

I suppose if anyone has a gutted front strut assembly, i'd be willing to buy it if mines damaged.

Let's just say I had to sue to get my $10,000 back after they destroyed 2 (and a half I guess) motors in my race car, and stole $5000 in parts off it (including my 5MT tranny that was supposed to go into my SVX). Long, long story.

They had some folks that knew what they were doing, but Nate left to go teach school and Paul runs his own shop in Sac (http://www.dbtuned.com/). If you want someone in Sac, go to Paul, he's a straight shooter that knows what he's doing.

Wow, I had never seen exactly how those inserts go in, and frankly I don't like it at all... I've done inserts before, but never one that required chopping and drilling and hacking the strut apart.

Mark, the link you put on here doesn't work for me, but the one you PM'ed me does. I looked at the write-up on that guys install, and by your description of what the shop in CA did, and the way that insert goes together, it sounds like your strut may be F'ed...

Dude! Remember doing the inserts on the FX?

I fixed the link....it should work now if anyone wants to see what's involved to do the Koni inserts.
I jacked up the car last night and looked around and everything feels tight (to my not so knowledgable brain)..... the bolt is in the bottom. i have to call the shop, but the strut assembly apppears to be newer than my otheres (much cleaner) so i think they actually replaced it. Not sure why the extra large washer is on there though, as all the others just have one of those star washers or whatever the ones with all the little teeth are called. So, i'm basically getting a "empty" thunk going over even the smallest bump. With everything that i can see tight, i'm guessing the strut is dead. I guess the only way to tell this is to take the strut out, pull on it to see if you get resistance, and then change the stiffness knob to more stiff and i should be able to feel more resistance. If anyone can help me do that, let me know! Or if anyone has another strut assembly they don't need, please let me know. This seems like something i could do in my driveway if i had a spring compressor?

Inserts are such a kludge. Less fluid, less piston area, less throw, etc... Just plain a bad design.

What is interesting is that the example photos show what appears to be an unscrewable cap on the cylinder which means they should be rebuildable, revalvable, etc... At minimum, the insert should be designed to use the cap for retention, not a bolt through the soft bottom of the case. I used to rebuild the ones on my Lancias that had a similar cap.

That said, take some pics of yours. From what you have said so far, the bolt on the bottom got loose, and then beat the crap out of the bottom as it continued to loosen. I'd bet you need a new strut.

You should just buy Scott's Koni struts, as should all the other people (Cody & Van :) ) looking for blown stock struts. Or pick up some cheap coilovers.

Tire rack has adjustable Struts for WRX's at like 120 a pop $480 for a set. I'm sure they are better than stock , but probably your worst of all options for adjustable struts go. But at under $500 a set its not a horrible idea.

Hey, my car does just fine with springs and stuts, thank you very much.

Koni inserts have a really good warranty. I'd call up Koni if you believe the insert has failed.

I got my KYB AGX's for $400 shipped from ebay.

Warranty doesn't cover a failed stock housing or the abuse from said housing.

Inserts are just a bad option. If that corner is dead and you can afford them, get almost anything else.

I think in this case, if infact it's failed, i'll just try to buy one insert from Koni. In the thread on Nasioc, one guy had one replaced and they sold him another. It seems that if 3 are still fine, why throw away the whole system, right? I've got prodrive springs with them and STI Group N tophats too. I would imagine that if Koni won't warranty it (if it's dead due to harm caused by strut assembly) that they'd sell me just one. It will be a pain to have to take it out to find out if it's dead, and if it is, to wait for a new one. I hppe it's just the screw out of place though.

Well, I've done a ton of research on viable strut options and the best fit for an AutoX/Daily Driver and from what I've seen, everyone loves the way the car handles/rides with the Konis and with a wagon, you get the benefit of not losing neg. camber by going with a sedan specific solution.

The only caveat I've seen is that if you are going to rally, the Tociko D-Specs are likely going to be more dependable for you.

Does he have upper management written all over him?

I am not saying Koni doesn't make a good damper, in fact, Koni makes some of the best bang for your buck dampers in the world.

The problem is in general inserts significantly underperform the OE part they replace. Since they fit inside the housing of the OE part, everything must be smaller which means more heat and weight, and less of everything else.

More:
Heat
Weight
Deflection/slop
Wear

Less:
Shaft diameter
Valve pack area
Throw
Fluid volume
Cooling
Gas volume
Life

If you have absolutely no other choices, so be it, but if you have any other choices that involve an OE or larger size damper, do it instead of an insert.

He's certainly not missing work, Bob.

Exactly my sentiment.

I have been thinking about this since I first read this thread. In addition to all of Deans points. I am pretty sure that when the suspension gets topped out. All of the force of the spring goes through the bottom bolt. Now I'm not saying that the bolt can't handle the force, especially if the only time the suspension gets topped out is when changing tires. But I'll bet if the suspension gets topped out with a bit more force than this, that concave surface on the bottom of the strut may yield a bit. Now, there is a bit of clearance in the assembly and hitting any bump will cause the insert to shift in the strut body. The damping forces will probably be enough to do this. Each bump now allows the insert to bang up and down bending things even more...

Markcjr says there are only little star washers under his bolt heads -- not the doubling washers pictured in the NASIOC thread. This probably magnified the problem.

Just a thought.

pictures are up
 

Pics are up.

Hmmm.. Looks like the backup washers are on there. Though the washers on the "fixed" one are an abomination! :huh: :eek:

Stupid blocked photobucket... attaching them to take a look...

Nice stack of Lowe's washers. :unamused:

I imagine they had to use that many washers since the replacement bolt was too long for the mating surface of the hex head to make contact otherwise. It doesn't look great, but should be okay as long as the bolt is tight. Hope you find the source of the clunk.

You mean, "they had to use that many washers because they were too lazy to do the right thing and get the proper sized and grade bolt that matched the rest of the struts". Yeah, that's what I thought you meant.

Remember, it's up to the customer to go and finish the work the proper way, right? :rolleyes: I know I had to spend tons of money and time re-doing all the work that was botched on my car. Somewhere around here I've got an email from Mike Warfield with a bunch of photos detailing the all the missing and improper bolts from my WRX. Like the missing nuts on the engine mount, for example. Those aren't important, are they? :rolleyes:

So would me next step be to dissasemble the strut assembly and see if that insert is dead? Besides a spring compressor, are there any special tools I'll need?

My suggestion: start all over, at least on that corner. Get another strut and insert, and put it back together correctly. Frankly, the whole setup doesn't sit well with me, but I'm sure if it's re-done *correctly* it could be okay.

Contact Koni for the correct replacement bolt and cupped washer.

You actually may not need a spring compressor if you have a couple ratcheting nylon tie down straps, though you can rent/borrow them from one of the parts shops.

Take it apart and see how mangled the hole is and how wollowed out the top of the stock housing is.

Yah, I'd be all pissy if I'd been through that experience too.

I'll admit, I am kinda pissy about it. I make a point not to go around badmouthing A&S, even though I'd have a pretty good right to. But I'm certainly not gonna keep quiet when I see them doing the same shit to other folks.

Ok, I feel dumb and annoyed at the same time. The problem was that the 3/4" nut that comes through in the middle of the top hat was only finger tight. I hadn't thought to check it as everything I'd read pointed to the bottom bolt. Anyway, just for kicks I tried to wiggle it and low and behold, it was really loose. So, I feel like an idiot for not realizing that in the first place, but am rather angry at the fact that i paid a shop to fix this and they didn't tighten up one of probably 5 visible bolts. Granted, they did do the half-assed fix on the bottom, but still... Either way, i just tightened it down with a 3/4" socket and the thunk is gone and the car drives perfectly. The shop will get a piece of my mind for causing a week and a half of annoyace though. Kind of makes me wonder what bolts might not have been tightened down when they did my head gaskets, radiator and power steering pump too. :huh:

Glad to hear you figured it out.

That top bolt should be tightened to some usually somewhat high torque spec. This usually requires an air gun, or some means of holding the strut to keep it from spinning while torquing. Make sure it's tight enough, or it'll just come loose again.

Yah, be careful not to twist the entire spring on the perch. I did that once. :oops: It really shouldn't happen with the car's weight on it, but I had it jacked up at the time.

The OEM struts have an allen head so that if you have one of those cool hollow top socket wrenches, you can hold the strut shaft still while you tighten the nut. My KYB AGX's don't have this so I used vice grips and an inner tube to protect the strut shaft.

Thanks for the info guys. I'll email Koni and have a local shop tourque them to whatever it's supposed to be at.

It would probably be cheaper to buy a torque wrench and do it yourself than to pay a shop to do it. You can get a decent torque wrench for less than an hour of shop labor that you'd be charged... and it'd take you all of 10 minutes to torque all four corners yourself.

Or hell, come to the meet on Thursday and I'll bring a torque wrench and do it for nuthin!

Just a follow up: So i sent an email to Koni yesterday saying that the bolt on the bottom had fallen out and requested they send me a new bolt, cup washer, and star washer. The Dhl guy just came and dropped them off. They overnighted me 2 new bolts, cup washers and star washers, free of charge.

Now, do i have to dissasemble the strut assembly to put this back on or should I just jack up the other side of the car so the pressure is on my passenger side wheel, unscrew that bolt with all the washers and try to put this one in? Or i could just drive it as is, but i'd like to put the proper bolt in with loctite. Thoughts?

I think if you do it with the car on the ground, or on ramps you should have no problem replacing the bolt with the strut on the car. If you have the tire off the ground, I'm afraid it might come loose. But I've never seen one of these setups in person, so I'm not 100% sure.

What Scott said i think as well.

But I still think you should dismantle that spring/strut package and see how wallowed out the top of the OE strut is.

And if you must use Locktite, use Blue.

I sort of agree, but I also think there's a chance that once you remove the existing bolt, the insert could shift in the housing and make it impossible to thread the new bolt in. I'd check with Koni, but I think you may end up having to take all of the weight off of that corner with a jack before you can thread the new bolt. Tough to say not having any first hand experience though.

Glad to hear Koni's reputation is deserved regarding customer service. I hear they'll next day you a whole insert if one dies on you.

Mark, dude, I'm back in Truckee as of today. Call me out and I'll help you look at your strut. We should just split a torque wrench from harbor freight or something for cheap. How do those Koni's treat you on Truckee's shitty roads?