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Originally Posted by Dean
But that's the point, a PROFESSIONAL with the right tools did create the base maps for the AP/ST! You continue to minimize that and assume that 30 minutes on a dyno with a "professional" is magically better. Mike K's open to closed loop transition issues are a great example of where the AP outshined the ECUTek/dyno tune. Could it have been resolved on the ECUTek, yes, probably with many more pulls, but ECUTek and a DYNO are not magical!
Why in the world would I want to start from the ground up? I don't understand your premiss.
ECUTek doesn't start at ground zero. They publish base maps, etc. that the tuner uses to build the custiomized ones There isn't just a screen full of Zeros. Even AEM has base maps for at least the cars they have harness connectors for. What is this obsession with starting from scratch?
You are right, they are both the stock ECU with all it's abilities to adapt, and protect your engine, with maps on them.
With ECUTek, you get one or two maps "customized" to your car/needs that require a trip back to the tuner when you make changes that are outside the ability of the ECU to adapt.
With AP/ST you get 5-10+ maps that you can customize to your car/needs as they change over time.
Two different approaches, with different implications, costs, risks, and energy/effort involved.
All I ask is that we stop bagging on either product, and stick to the tech.
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Holy jesus Dean... I'm so sick of this argument... especially when you're not even bothering to read what I'm typing.
Let me reitterate:
- ECUTek and AP are exactly the same thing: ways to get a custom map on the stock ECU. By
the laws of physics one can't be "better" than the other at their primary task: putting new maps on the ECU. This has absolutely *nothing* to do w/ the rest of my argument.
- Cobb's Street Tuner is being sold as an alternative a professional dyno tune. The idea is that one doesn't need an expensive dyno or experience to get the same performance out of the car. That concept is patently FALSE:
- First, a "road dyno" is never as repeat able as a controlled chassis dyno. -
- Second, someone w/o experience will virtually never tune a car as well as someone with professional experience.
As far as the "ground up" tuning... that was just a hypothetical example to demonstraight the ass kicking you'd recieve if you tried to tune a car on the street. It was not meant as evidence in the ECUTek vs. AP debate... in acutality, the fact that you bring up that Street Tuner maps started on a dyno is actually supporting evidence that
tuning on the street is retarded.
So let me summarize one more time, so I don't have to repeat myself in later posts:
ECUTek vs. AP: knock yourself out, it's the same technology. AP's got a nice ability to load multiple maps, but that comes at the cost of risk since it's hard to 100% authenticate the maps you're downloading off the internet. However, if you're getting all your maps made by your tuner for your car/purpose, you're all set.
Road vs. Chassis Dyno: Road dynos are what "tuners" use when they can't afford a real chassis dyno. If it's the best you've got, well then it's the best you've got... but we've got access to a real tuner with a real dyno, so tuning your car on a "road dyno" is retarded, as it will never be as accurate and repeatable as a chassis dyno.
Home Tuning vs. Professional Tuning: Unless they're a friggen genius, or just plain lucky, chances are Joe Public can't tune as well as an experienced professional... or Joe Public would open Joe Public Motorsports, buy a dyno and make some money as a professional. Just because I have some channel-locks and know what teeth look like, doesn't mean I can call myself a dentist. Real experience and training counts for a lot more than "well I read some shit on the internet about tuning".
Tweaking after a Pro Tune: If you think you can "tweak" your maps yourself better than your tuner, then either you will be risking the safety built into the pro's tune because there's no room for improvement, or you didn't explain the purpose of the maps to you tuner properly and he left something on the table. A real pro will interact w/ you and get the car right, or you're not dealing w/ a real pro. Bottom line: you shouldn't
need to tweak anything.
Finally... as far as bagging on "either product", you're missing something. I'm not really talking about two specifc products... I'm talking about two types of products. Pro tuning software vs. home tuning software. ECUTek, Access Port, hell even the lowly UniChip... they're all fine, since they're not meant for Joe Public. Stuff like the Street Tuner, UTEC, and whatever the home tuning deal that's coming from ECUTek... well, I say stay away... or at the least know what you're getting yourself into... know that you're probably not as smart as the pro, know that you don't have the same tools available, know that you're either not going to be as fast and/or you're not going to have the same margin of safety.
*gasp* I think I've said all I want to say... someone else feel free to have the last word.