History Channel & the Middle East...

[Dean]

Wow... Want to understand more of what the heck is going on over there...

Man, Moment, Machine: Saddam Hussein (6-7PM tonight)
Targeted: Osama bin Laden (2 hours)
Brotherhood of Terror

Some of this is Scary stuff... Sorry, Doesn't look like they replay the last two in the next 2 weeks though at least on charter. BoT explains a lot of how we got here all the way back to the 20s... In some respects, the Russians and the U.S. provided the building blocks... Forrest & Trees...

Just goes to show bad is bad, and the enemy of my enemy is my friend or lesser of two evils theory doesn't really work...

[sperry]

If we (the US specifically, the western world in general) hadn't imposed our will on the region back in 1948 with the founding of Israel, then followed up with all the manipulation of governments to control the oil there, the people in the Middle East that hate us today, wouldn't hate us.

Sure they have their tradition of violence based on regional religious and historical differences, but if the west had instead of manipulating the area, simply paid for oil, the area would have become prosperous and modern, and probably downright friendly. Look at Japan since 1945.

[MikeK]

I recently watched this documentary, which was absolutely excellent at explaining how the current situation in the middle east arose when 2 guys, one british, one french, carved up the middle east amongst themselves after WWI. Highly recommended.

[A1337STI]

Isreal was more created by Europe than the USA, but we get all the blame

[sperry]

Originally Posted by A1337STI

Isreal was more created by Europe than the USA, but we get all the blame

We get the blame because we finance their military.

[A1337STI]

As in your previous post that you said the US divided up the middle east, that type of incorrect blame is what we get.

Yes we do sell Lots of military gear to Isreal, and we often give them the money to buy it from us. (Germany also gives them Large military financial aid) But the ignorant masses will always say stuff like 'the usa created isreal after WWI' and other things that are factually incorrect.
Its this crazy idea that people shouldn't be wiped off the planet due to religious beliefs...

But yes that's correct Blame We Sell them military hardware that we only sell to other close allies , and we Fund their military. but that's not really the blame that bugs me.

Also when people think that the Pallestinians were given no place. the original 'cut up' Had Jordan being their new home land, but the people of Jordan treat Pallestinians worse than isrealis. The Pallestinians refugees that make it into jordan are Caged up and refused any medical treatment. Think US Style camps for Japaneese in WW2, But worse, by others who Claim to support you against the great satan, but when you escape to them, they lock you up and refuse you any rights what so ever. Isreal Will allow red cross and stuff into gaza and what not.

Its messed up and and most people are incredible ignorant of the facts.

[A1337STI]

If you want the Middle easterners to stop hating us
1) Allow them to murder everyone in Israel
2) Never have a us base anywhere close to the Middle east
3) don't allow your business travelers to bring any religious symbols in
4) don't interfere with Iran getting Nukes
5) cave into future demands by Iran

Personally I'de give them #2 but nothing else. what about you?


I don't suppose you've ever read the Jpost (Very one sided of course) but its amazing how often they have suicide bombers attack them. (often multiple times a day) But only a tiny fraction of it makes our news. Sometimes you will hear a news station report 'violence is breaking out after 3 weeks of cease fire' but if you dig deeper you will find that during the cease fire there was shootings every day ...

Personally if one side says 'i want to live in peace' and the other side says ' i want to kill everyone who doesn't believe what i do' i will side with the people who wish for peace every time.

[AtomicLabMonkey]

First of all, not all "middle-easterners" are the same. In fact most are not. All the violence in that region is made up of many separate, but sometimes interacting, conflicts.

About Israel - it wouldn't have a fraction of the problems it does with terrorism today if it had ceded back all the land it conquered after the 1967 six-day war. They gave the Sinai back to Egypt, but kept the Golan Heights, West Bank and Gaza strip. All of which have been the main thorns in their side - even today, a full 40 years later.

I think some of their reasons for keeping all that territory are understandable within the context of the cold war, when the neighboring arab states were actively supported by the Soviets and a real military threat to Israel's existence. The west bank in particular is a large territorial buffer that served to deny adversaries an easy invasion route through the center of Israel to the sea, which would have cut the country in two. But the cold war ended almost 20 years ago. Israel's military has been the 800lb gorilla of the region for a long time now, and I don't think anyone can credibly argue that there is a genuine threat of invasion by a neighboring country anymore. Just as an example, the number of armored vehicles (tanks, lighter APC's, etc.) that the IDF fields alone is roughly equal to the number that Eqypt, Syria and Jordan have combined. Not to mention a large arsenal of nuclear weapons.

Their problems with Hezbollah in Lebanon have a similar basis in that Syria supports Hezbollah; Syria does this because the Golan Heights used to belong to them, and they want it back.

IMO they have basically screwed themselves in the last two decades by refusing to simply let go of the conquered, hostile populations in those 3 areas that really really really don't want to live under Israeli control.

And by the way, if you really think Israel wants to live in peace, you've been very misled. They are notorious for talking a good game, while actually doing the exact opposite (e.g. calling for peace talks and starting construction on new Israeli settlements in palestinian territory in the same week).