Drift vs. Grip SCC article.

[Dean]

Interesting article in Sept. issue of SCC. While it is far from the definitive answer, it has some interesting results.

On Tarmac, the short of it is drift = slow even in the tightest of corners. (The article doesn't say it, but the exception would be something that required a 3 point turn otherwise.)

And what I like best is that CORNER EXIT SPEED IS KING!!! Long live the type 1 corner! A stock STI outperformed a well prepared one in a couple areas, and it was largely due to faster corner exit.

Some of the other interesting stuff from the graphs from stock to grip are that smooth is fast as is being on the gas earlier and using more of the course width... Imagine that.

Take a read...

[Kevin M]

I stopped subscribing to SCC when Jacquot and Coleman left. Is that article on the website?

[Dean]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

I stopped subscribing to SCC when Jacquot and Coleman left. Is that article on the website?

Nope, at least not yet.

[MattR]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

I stopped subscribing to SCC when Jacquot and Coleman left. Is that article on the website?

I got a "Kevin, please come back to us" free issue. Sorry I kept it

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by MattR

I got a "Kevin, please come back to us" free issue. Sorry I kept it

Bastard! I got a begging issue from GRM too, but Jake ate it.

[MattR]

Haha. It wasnt that great anyway, you didn't miss much.

[A1337STI]

Dean you split the answer off into Tarmac, and ???

and then didn't finish. I'm sure its Snow and Dirt , Drift the piss out of it, so that you get higher exit speed ?? But i haven't see the article, care to enlighten me ?

[Dean]

Originally Posted by A1337STI

Dean you split the answer off into Tarmac, and ???

and then didn't finish. I'm sure its Snow and Dirt , Drift the piss out of it, so that you get higher exit speed ?? But i haven't see the article, care to enlighten me ?

The article is specific to tarmac and is a combination of medium to super tight corners with short/medium to no straights between them, and in no case is throwing the back end out faster.

Is it the ultimate definitive answer, no, but an interesting read.

[cody]

I think Eric, in the black AS STI added some anecdotal fuel to the fire on Saturday. He threw the Diff in full lock and drifted the whole course. He actually came to a stop with all 4 spinning a couple times. His times sucked of course, but he was having fun.

[MPREZIV]

Yeah, and he managed to get ME in trouble again!!! Yesterday, with Nick in the car: "was that you who was drifting all over the place out here yesterday!?" Dammit!!!!!!one!11

[sperry]

Originally Posted by cody

I think Eric, in the black AS STI added some anecdotal fuel to the fire on Saturday. He threw the Diff in full lock and drifted the whole course. He actually came to a stop with all 4 spinning a couple times. His times sucked of course, but he was having fun.

Full lock on tarmac?

Poor tires. Poor differential. Poor times.

[cody]

He tried to protest Alex for his front sway too.

[Kevin M]

Yeah well, Dick Lewis had a protst of his own for Mr. Knobikoff. And he had some ground to stand on.

[sperry]

Did some shit go down that I didn't hear about?

[Dean]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

Yeah well, Dick Lewis had a protst of his own for Mr. Knobikoff. And he had some ground to stand on.

I had the "drifting" discussion with Jim and Dave, and my primary thought is this.

SCCA National, who underwrites the insurance for these events needs to be made aware that there are potential participants who may intentionally induce oversteer on multiple occasions during a given run for purposes other than to minimize time on course.

Is this acceptable/permissible behavior for events sanctioned for Solo?

Depending on the response to such a question, we can pose more. Right now, I do not think there is a rule against it, either at the national or local level.

[Kevin M]

My primary thought is that people with lesser car control skills than Erik will think that they too can come out and go driftering. It's not so much that Erik is being unsafe (although I heard a secondhand report that he had an "off" that nearly brought him to a worker station while he was still in the throttle) but the potential for injury at worst and intermittent red flags at best.

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by sperry

Did some shit go down that I didn't hear about?

Erik drifted the course all day on Saturday. Several of us felt this was not appropriate. At the end of the day Dick told him that if he continued to intentioally break traction he would not be allowed further participation. This is the report I got from John Riggs III, who didn't give specifics of the conversation except to say the Dick was not happy.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

My primary thought is that people with lesser car control skills than Erik will think that they too can come out and go driftering. It's not so much that Erik is being unsafe (although I heard a secondhand report that he had an "off" that nearly brought him to a worker station while he was still in the throttle) but the potential for injury at worst and intermittent red flags at best.

I agree, but unless there is a rule against it, then it is permitted in terms of on course driving technique.

You also open a significant debate with the high HP crowd that often have significant slip angles.

Before a Safety steward can interject, something must be unsafe. Skilled or unskilled drivers drifting or not have hit workers. We have participants who have regularly failed to brake for corners and run over many cones, timing lights, slid onto taxiways, headed for fences, etc.

IMHO drifting is not inherently any more unsafe especially at speeds like Saturday's course.

I think this is first an insurance question, second a realistic safety question and third a site damage question. Personal opinions on drifting don't count.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

Erik drifted the course all day on Saturday. Several of us felt this was not appropriate. At the end of the day Dick told him that if he continued to intentioally break traction he would not be allowed further participation. This is the report I got from John Riggs III, who didn't give specifics of the conversation except to say the Dick was not happy.

I thought we already didn't allow people to do that? Certainly e-brake use, and donuts aren't allowed... and anyone that's off course and still on the throttle is warned, and then kicked out, no? Why was there a discussion about it?

And, what was the part about the swaybar?

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Dean

I agree, but unless there is a rule against it, then it is permitted in terms of on course driving technique.

You also open a significant debate with the high HP crowd that often have significant slip angles.

Before a Safety steward can interject, something must be unsafe. Skilled or unskilled drivers drifting or not have hit workers. We have participants who have regularly failed to brake for corners and run over many cones, timing lights, slid onto taxiways, headed for fences, etc.

IMHO drifting is not inherently any more unsafe especially at speeds like Saturday's course.

I think this is first an insurance question, second a realistic safety question and third a site damage question. Personal opinions on drifting don't count.

Certainly this isn't an issue about slip-angle. This is an issue about control. Anyone that's intentionally controlling the car with dynamic friction rather than static friction has less control than someone trying to maintain grip, at least in terms of available traction. It's an awful lot harder to stop a car that's drifting sideways than one that's rolling straight.

And unless he's somehow fast (and thus legitimizing the driving technique, which isn't likely since drifting is slow) then he's just showboating, which we already don't allow.

Anyway, I'm sure I'll hear more through the BoD.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by sperry

I thought we already didn't allow people to do that? Certainly e-brake use, and donuts aren't allowed... and anyone that's off course and still on the throttle is warned, and then kicked out, no? Why was there a discussion about it?

Donuts are the only thing I think we as a local entity have identified related solely to alleged site damage. Even that isn't in the sups as far as I know, so technically, we can't enforce it especially when we don't announce it consistently.

Emotion and opinion appear to be fevered on this topic, but ultimately in a rules bound sport such as solo, those are irrelevant. Maybe we should ask the FIA for a ruling.

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by Dean

I agree, but unless there is a rule against it, then it is permitted in terms of on course driving technique.

You also open a significant debate with the high HP crowd that often have significant slip angles.

Before a Safety steward can interject, something must be unsafe. Skilled or unskilled drivers drifting or not have hit workers. We have participants who have regularly failed to brake for corners and run over many cones, timing lights, slid onto taxiways, headed for fences, etc.

IMHO drifting is not inherently any more unsafe especially at speeds like Saturday's course.

I think this is first an insurance question, second a realistic safety question and third a site damage question. Personal opinions on drifting don't count.

I have no issues with drifting. If I had an appropriate car I'd be trying it myself. But the SCCA has made it clear that they want none of it at Solo events. So between National not wanting it and the obvious potential for risk to person and property, it should not be allowed at our events.

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by sperry

And, what was the part about the swaybar?

I didn't even know about that until I read it here. Maybe Alex will respond to this in less than a week.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by sperry

Certainly this isn't an issue about slip-angle. This is an issue about control. Anyone that's intentionally controlling the car with dynamic friction rather than static friction has less control than someone trying to maintain grip, at least in terms of available traction. It's an awful lot harder to stop a car that's drifting sideways than one that's rolling straight.

And unless he's somehow fast (and thus legitimizing the driving technique, which isn't likely since drifting is slow) then he's just showboating, which we already don't allow.

Anyway, I'm sure I'll hear more through the BoD.

To be clear, I am not a fan of drifting and would prefer if it was not done at our events, but playing devil's advocate, show me why I can't.

You can't make a rule related to "control". If we did, 50% of our novices would be sent packing as would you and I on occasion.

Where does oversteer end and drifting begin?

We have a rule against showboating? And how is that defined?

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by Dean

We have a rule against showboating? And how is that defined?

Like pornography vs. art, most of us know it when we see it. Getting all 4 tires spinning in an STi that is moving on an axis matched by neither the centerline of the car nor the steering angle is porn. I mean, showboating.