Autocross and Wheel question

[Nick Koan]

Actually, for the start of the season I'll also be on someone else's last year's 615s

But, they're new to me!

[MPREZIV]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

w00t! Gimme yo leftovers y0!


Man, I gotta stop sayin that.

Gimme money Nukka!

I ain't GIVIN' a damn thing!

[Kevin M]

It was worth a try! PMed.

[NevadaSTi]

I'm on last year's RE070's with only one day at autocross on them. I should be good for the whole season. I hope.

[tysonK]

I need to get on the ball after the stock advans wear out.

285/30/18
18x9.5 +35
5mm spacer in front and rolling fenders in back.
evo contact patch.

[M3n2c3]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

It was worth a try! PMed.

Don't forget about me

[Bob Danger]

I've got some snow tires on some wheels, now if I only had a car to put them on.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by tysonK

I need to get on the ball after the stock Advans wear out. [...]285/30/18

Ah, the $1300 annual commitment. Street, or R compound... Good luck with that. I am pretty damn sure Señor Cheap Bastard isn't going into that territory. That's a new turbo, 1/3 of a wide body kit, etc...

These numbers do not include the $2000-3000 custom wheels, or the $3000 hub conversion + $1000-2000 wheels I'd need to run them.

615s: (Vulcan incl. shipping)
225/45/17 $480
235/40/17 $510
255/40/17 $560

Hoosiers: (Tire Rack incl. tax)
245/40/17 $1020
285/30/18 $1290

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by M3n2c3

Don't forget about me

No problem. But uh, don't stop reminding me.

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by Dean

Ah, the $1300 annual commitment. Street, or R compound... Good luck with that. I am pretty damn sure Señor Cheap Bastard isn't going into that territory. That's a new turbo, 1/3 of a wide body kit, etc...

These numbers do not include the $2000-3000 custom wheels, or the $3000 hub conversion + $1000-2000 wheels I'd need to run them.

615s: (Vulcan incl. shipping)
225/45/17 $480
235/40/17 $510
255/40/17 $560

Hoosiers: (Tire Rack incl. tax)
245/40/17 $1020
285/30/18 $1290

If you'd bought an '05 in the first place, you could be on 285/30R18 R compounds for ~$2100, or 275/35R18 RT-615s for under $2000... with forged wheels. Next year 18" tires will be cheaper because so many people are going to them.

18s are the new 17s.

Also, the hub conversion is well under $1000... plus there are a million off the shelf wheel sets in 18x8.5 or wider.

Bottom line Dean, your car will be beatable until you go to 18s. Same with all of us really.

[Dean]

Caught you editing...

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

If you'd bought an '05 in the first place

= $3000-5000+ for car + $X000 in parts I couldn't use.

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

275/35R18 RT-615s

You edited this....

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

for under $2000... with forged wheels.

Forged 18 x 10 wheels + $1290 ($914 after edit) tires... for < $2000, where do I sign up?

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

Next year 18" tires will be cheaper because so many people are going to them.

Tires that are only "stock" on 1/2 of a Porsche, maybe, as far as I can find, and insane autocrossers are not going to come down substantially.

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

Also, the hub conversion is well under $1000...

Installed on an '04 STI with all associated brake and drive line changes? Where?

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

plus there are a million off the shelf wheel sets in 18x8.5 or wider.

So? To run a 285, you really need 10"+ wheels.

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

18s are the new 17s.

While this may be true to some extent in higher end cars, 285s are not the new 225s...

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

Bottom line Dean, your car will be beatable until you go to 18s. Same with all of us really.

So? My car will be beatable until I get the right one for a specific class and prepare it to the limits of that class and learn to drive it better than everyone on the planet...

[sperry]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

If you'd bought an '05 in the first place, you could be on 285/30R18 R compounds for ~$2100, or 275/35R18 RT-615s for under $2000... with forged wheels. Next year 18" tires will be cheaper because so many people are going to them.

18s are the new 17s.

Also, the hub conversion is well under $1000... plus there are a million off the shelf wheel sets in 18x8.5 or wider.

Bottom line Dean, your car will be beatable until you go to 18s. Same with all of us really.

Dean pretty much covered this, but the hub conversion is significantly more than $1000.

A grand gets you the new front knuckles/hubs, and rear bearings/hubs, and ABS tone wheel spacers to make the '04 front axles compatible with the '05 front knuckles.

So then you have to get the rear hubs pressed into the knuckles, and have the tone wheel spacer installed.

Then it's on to finding brake rotors. I tried to have mine drilled with the new bolt pattern: the rears were no-go... for some reason putting the right pattern on there isn't enough to make 'em fit... I dunno if C&C screwed up the pattern or what, but it looked right, measured right, and still wouldn't seat. The fronts were a little better after I brought them back twice to be over-bored, either way the only real way to get the right brake rotors is to buy them... so that's like $1200 for a pair of front StopTech rotors w/ top hats, and $300 something for rear GrN gravel rotors (which are cheaper than the STi Brembo rotors that most people doing this conversion have).

Then there's the worst part: getting the suspension to bolt to the front knuckles. Frankly, the right way to do it, is to just sell your existing struts and buy some new '05 STi coilovers. Since I had just purchased a set of '04 STi Tein SuperRace's (which are retarded expensive) there's no way I was gonna take the $1000 hit to sell 'em as used (with one track weekend on 'em) and buy an '05 set when all I needed was a pair of the '05 bottom brackets. But I ended up having to argue with Tein USA for like a week getting them to agree to sell the brackets to me with zero warranty, etc, etc, etc, for $500 freaking bucks.

And if you're like most people, once the hub conversion is done you're off shopping for new wheels, which pretty much always cost more than you'll get selling your old wheels.

I think I spend more like $3000 or $4000 on my "$1000 hub conversion". But I was able to toss some 255 Sport Cups shod 17x9 wheels on the car finally, and picked up like 5 seconds/lap at RFR over guys that were normally about the same speed as me. So, it was beneficial to the car... but I'm pretty sure it's not worth all the money and time unless you've got a car like mine that's already so modded that it has no resale value to begin with.

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by Dean

Caught you editing...

And? I had to doublecheck size/price of RT615s. I normally don't look at the wider sizes.
...in tires.

Originally Posted by Dean

= $3000-5000+ for car + $X000 in parts I couldn't use.

Senior Cheap Bastard forgets that the car would have been worth $3-4000 more, so it's a wash there. And you bought basically all your WRX parts used, and S.C.B. is one of those guys who generally gets back as much if not more than he pays when he sells his used parts. So boo-hoo.

Originally Posted by Dean

You edited this....

Yep.

Originally Posted by Dean

Forged 18 x 10 wheels + $1290 ($914 after edit) tires... for < $2000, where do I sign up?

$1000 Gram Lights 57F from Gruppe-S will bear wider tires in better diameters than anything you can run in 17" at the same total price. So why would you "need" 18x10s to move up? Show me a good 17x8.5 or wider wheel at a decent weight for less than that.

Originally Posted by Dean

Tires that are only "stock" on 1/2 of a Porsche, maybe, as far as I can find, and insane autocrossers are not going to come down substantially.

Dean, 18s are stock on the freakin' Cobalt SS, Solstice, Sky, MP3, and many other low-priced cars now. Most come with stock 18x8s. There will be PLENTY of tires available for wheels that size and a bit wider this time next year, at a reasonable increase in cost over 17s.

Originally Posted by Dean

Installed on an '04 STI with all associated brake and drive line changes? Where?

You have Brembos... why can't you just switch to '05 rotors? Was there a caliper change I was unaware of?

Originally Posted by Dean

So? To run a 285, you really need 10"+ wheels.

It's ideal but not "needed." Personally I'd prefer 285/30R18 on 8.5" than 255/40R17 on 8 or 8.5" wide wheels.

Originally Posted by Dean

While this may be true to some extent in higher end cars, 285s are not the new 225s...

18s have become standard on a long, long list of cars starting in MY06. The aftermarket wheel and tire industry is not blind; there will be lots of wider than stock but same or very similar diameter tires shortly.

Originally Posted by Dean

So? My car will be beatable until I get the right one for a specific class and prepare it to the limits of that class and learn to drive it better than everyone on the planet...

I know Dean... I'm just saying that if you had looked ahead a little more when you were buying this car you could have been running the optimal tier and wheel package at a minimal increase in cost for the first few years.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

$1000 Gram Lights 57F from Gruppe-S will bear wider tires in better diameters than anything you can run in 17" at the same total price. So why would you "need" 18x10s to move up? Show me a good 17x8.5 or wider wheel at a decent weight for less than that.

Enkei RPF1's in 17x8.5, 17x9, and 17x9.5 are at that price IIRC.

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

It's ideal but not "needed." Personally I'd prefer 285/30R18 on 8.5" than 255/40R17 on 8 or 8.5" wide wheels.

A 9" wide rim is really the practical minimum for a 255. You can run them on a 8" or 8.5", but at a performance loss (I know I can feel the added slop at turn-in autocrossing on 255 width 615's on 8" wide wheels). Putting a 285 on an 8.5" wide rim is retarded. You need 10" wide wheels for a 285 or you're spending 285 width dollars for 235 width performance.

If you're going to spend the money on wide tires, spend the money on the right width wheels for them.

[tysonK]

My little comment got some action that was cool.

AFIAK there is no 285/30/18 RT-615? Or am I looking at the wrong sites? I will probably end up with a 275 that is harder to fit b/c of the diameter difference.
Some of the evo guys run wide tires for the street. With addtional "extreme" camber and suspension adjustment I should be able to run what I want without too much hassle. I might roll the fenders just in case. As far as budget allows, I like the 18X9.5 Enkei fn01rc, they go for around $280 a piece.

But I'm sure none of you Hub Converting Subaru guys care. w3rd!

It's going to an interesting season.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

I know Dean... I'm just saying that if you had looked ahead a little more when you were buying this car you could have been running the optimal tier and wheel package at a minimal increase in cost for the first few years.

Kevin, I knew about 285s and 18s when I made my purchase. The day I want to pay Porsche prices for tires, I'll buy a Porsche thank you very much. If Tyson etc. wants to spend that kind of money on tires and wheels, more power to them.

Argh... I agree 18s are everywhere, but my point is that 285s will never be commonplace. Except maybe as rears on high HP RWD cars, they are not a reasonable street tire. They will hunt like the dickens, eat gas, and just plain be a pain.

Also as the sidewalls get shorter, you MUST use the right width wheels or risk bead failure under load. 285/30/18s on 8.5" wheels is just silly. That is almost 3" worth of tire with that has to be compensated for in on a 30 profile, compared to 2" on a 40 series 255 on an 8" which is even a little much...

And Scott already re-explained the hub conversion.

I bought the car I wanted, fully informed. I do not regret my selection. I wish all 285 tire purchasers the best of luck. I'm going to keep trying to drive better on my cheap bastard compromise thank you very much.

By the way, I hear 285s on 18s are the right solution for SP Legacy's... Go for it....

[MikeK]

Originally Posted by tysonK

I will probably end up with a 275 that is harder to fit b/c of the diameter difference.
Some of the evo guys run wide tires for the street. With addtional "extreme" camber and suspension adjustment I should be able to run what I want without too much hassle. I might roll the fenders just in case.

Just jack the evo up another couple of feet, it'll be fine then

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by sperry

<snip>If you're going to spend the money... spend the money<snip>

I'm nto the one that needs convincing on this count. Dean's the one who will invest $20,000 in his STi but acts like $22,000 would be a crime.

To be honest Dean, I cant reconcile how someone as frugal as you (not to be confused with "cheap" or "miserly") can justify autocrossing and tracking to himself in the first place.

[MikeK]

That's Señor Frugal to you

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by Dean

Kevin, I knew about 285s and 18s when I made my purchase. The day I want to pay Porsche prices for tires, I'll buy a Porsche thank you very much. If Tyson etc. wants to spend that kind of money on tires and wheels, more power to them.

Dean, there will be 285 width performance street tires in more flavors next year, at lower prices than they are currently. They are no longer tires for exotic supercars.

Originally Posted by Dean

Argh... I agree 18s are everywhere, but my point is that 285s will never be commonplace. Except maybe as rears on high HP RWD cars, they are not a reasonable street tire. They will hunt like the dickens, eat gas, and just plain be a pain.

High-horsepower cars that run 18" wheels are commonplace, right now. You're ignoring how free markets work if you don't think there will be more, better, and cheaper solutions every spring from now until eternity.

Originally Posted by Dean

Also as the sidewalls get shorter, you MUST use the right width wheels or risk bead failure under load. 285/30/18s on 8.5" wheels is just silly. That is almost 3" worth of tire with that has to be compensated for in on a 30 profile, compared to 2" on a 40 series 255 on an 8" which is even a little much...

I'll concede the point on 285s. I wouldn't run them on 8.5" wheels either. But there are plenty of wheels available now in 18x9.5 or wider that fit the '05+ STi. Check the Wide Tire thread on nasioc if you feel like I list. It's not an option for me and my 130hp right now so I don't have any committed to memory, although I believe there are Koseis, Enkei RPF1, and FN01-RCs available in such sizes, all in the low $1000 range for a set. Also, apparently Rota is starting to bring 9" wide and greater wheels to market for the car.

Originally Posted by Dean

And Scott already re-explained the hub conversion.

You didn't answer the question I posed to you though- can't you just use '05 rotors on your '04 calipers? OR did they change?

Originally Posted by Dean

I bought the car I wanted, fully informed. I do not regret my selection. I wish all 285 tire purchasers the best of luck. I'm going to keep trying to drive better on my cheap bastard compromise thank you very much.

Inever said you would regret it or be unhappy. My argument was that it was not nearly as expensive (or as stupid) as you made it sound to do what it takes to run class-leading wheels and tires.

Originally Posted by Dean

By the way, I hear 285s on 18s are the right solution for SP Legacy's... Go for it....

Soon as I own an autocross Legacy, I'll get right on that.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

I'm nto the one that needs convincing on this count. Dean's the one who will invest $20,000 in his STi but acts like $22,000 would be a crime.

To be honest Dean, I cant reconcile how someone as frugal as you (not to be confused with "cheap" or "miserly") can justify autocrossing and tracking to himself in the first place.

Your math continues to amaze me... You just don't get it... It would have cost me many thousands more to go to an '05... I've tried to explain, but I don't have the energy to go over it line by line with you. I made a conscious informed decision I am happy with. Sorry if you wouldn't have done the same thing.

I'd autocross or track one of my old '78 Lancia Betas if that is what I could afford and justify because I enjoy it.

[dknv]

Originally Posted by sperry

.. 9" wide rim is really the practical minimum for a 255. You can run them on a 8" or 8.5", but at a performance loss (I know I can feel the added slop at turn-in autocrossing on 255 width 615's on 8" wide wheels). Putting a 285 on an 8.5" wide rim is retarded. You need 10" wide wheels for a 285 or you're spending 285 width dollars for 235 width performance.

I suppose it depends what kind of tires you are talking about. 2 top-level BS drivers at SD were on 285/30-18 hoosiers on 18x8 SSR's, one of them placed 2nd in class. Another back east is running 285/30-18 kumho's on 18x8 SSR's, he took 1st at the Dixie NT. We tried the 285 hoosiers last year, they look weird when mounted but they launched great. I did not think they handled transitions well, but I may just needed to have learned to handle them differently, or the car setup may needed to have been adjusted for them.

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by dknv

I suppose it depends what kind of tires you are talking about. 2 top-level BS drivers at SD were on 285/30-18 hoosiers on 18x8 SSR's, one of them placed 2nd in class. Another back east is running 285/30-18 kumho's on 18x8 SSR's, he took 1st at the Dixie NT. We tried the 285 hoosiers last year, they look weird when mounted but they launched great. I did not think they handled transitions well, but I may just needed to have learned to handle them differently, or the car setup may needed to have been adjusted for them.

These were both B Stock cars right Deb? That makes a big difference. Generally it seems that stock class drivers stuff the biggest tires they can possibly make fit on their largest allowable wheels, whereas ST/SP/SM drivers prefer extra wheel width whenever possible. They find the widest tire that fits underneath the car and buy wheels appropriately. I only argued that Dean (and other turbo Subaru drivers) should strongly consider 18x8.5s over 18x10s or wider for cost purposes.

[dknv]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

These were both B Stock cars right Deb? That makes a big difference. Generally it seems that stock class drivers stuff the biggest tires they can possibly make fit on their largest allowable wheels, whereas ST/SP/SM drivers prefer extra wheel width whenever possible. They find the widest tire that fits underneath the car and buy wheels appropriately. I only argued that Dean (and other turbo Subaru drivers) should strongly consider 18x8.5s over 18x10s or wider for cost purposes.

Correct, BS RX8's. The turbo ST's (STX/U) are still stuck at 245's though, right?

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by dknv

Correct, BS RX8's. The turbo ST's (STX/U) are still stuck at 245's though, right?

I can't remember, but I think STU is limited to 245 by AWD, but not limited on wheel width.