Help me understand HR 4437, and related arguments

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by JC

I want you and Austin to tell me how you intend to pay for your immigration reform. Who's after school programs are you going to cut? Or are going to print more money and cripple our economy with inflation?

Hmm, how about pulling back some of our military deployments around the globe? We could start with the 65000+ troops still stationed in Germany alone despite the cold war being dead for well over a decade. We could end the completely retarded and ineffective War On Drugs. We could change the federal budgetary & procurement systems to use methods that don't encourage rampant and wanton waste of money. Come on man, there's all kinds of restructuring the federal government could do without cutting some poor little kids after school program, and you know it.

But, that's fantasy land because no legislator will ever have enough balls to do it... all they're ever concerned with is carving out enough pork in the federal budget for their home district to keep getting elected.

[JonnydaJibba]

Originally Posted by JC

http://ask.yahoo.com/20011107.html

Dude that's tight I didn't know Yahoo could do that.

[SpecB#127]

Originally Posted by JC

They still pay taxes you know, just not income tax. It's not like they say "Oh I'm hear illegally, can you get rid of that sales tax for me." They usually make less than $20k /yr anyway which means essentially they'd pay no income tax anyway.



Maybe our education system just sucks. You can look it up, I'm not lying to you.



So now you are raising my taxes AND making me pay more for services? THANKS! Taking money out of my pocket is a great way to help the economy.

When I made less than 20K a year, I still paid taxes, and it did suck!

I think I just saw something recently that ranked Nevada 48th in the nation in eduacation, that could be part of it

I am not saying I am in favor of this bill on the house floor in anyway, shape, or form. We have too much governemnt spending as it is (hence our huge ass deficit). We have the infastructure in place already to regulate immigration, yet we turn the other way.

[SpecB#127]

Originally Posted by AtomicLabMonkey

Hmm, how about pulling back some of our military deployments around the globe? We could start with the 65000+ troops still stationed in Germany alone despite the cold war being dead for well over a decade. We could end the completely retarded and ineffective War On Drugs. We could change the federal budgetary & procurement systems to use methods that don't encourage rampant and wanton waste of money. Come on man, there's all kinds of restructuring the federal government could do without cutting some poor little kids after school program, and you know it.

But, that's fantasy land because no legislator will ever have enough balls to do it... all they're ever concerned with is carving out enough pork in the federal budget for their home district to keep getting elected.

Another great idea would be to repeal all salaries for elected officials, since they are public servants, after all.

[Kevin M]

I think this bill boils down to two reasosn for existence: the red herring from the White House/Congress, and red state congressmen pushing an unlikely law to pass so they can go home and tell their constituents "hey, we TRIED to kick out all those dirty immigrants who are ruining our country, but those godless liberals wouldn't go along with it!"

As far as the philisophical stuff... I'm kinda soft on immigration. Like Scott and JC have said, immigration's benefits over our nation's history have FAR outweighed its costs. I personally would like to see more effort made to get immigrants who inend to be permanently here to go through naturalization, but I also think we need little tolerance for those who commit criminal acts. And the national security argument is laughable- somebody ask the CIA how effective the USSR and eastern bloc was at keeping out undesirables. If the administration ever actually proposed any kind of "hard" border controls, it would be the first step to revolution and civil war. I don't see anybody with any real power in our current system finding that to be acceptable.

[SpecB#127]

Originally Posted by JC

http://ask.yahoo.com/20011107.html

Point taken.

My final point regarding langauge:

Go to Germany, France, Mexico, or any other non-English speaking country and see how much they will cater to you speaking English.

[JC]

Originally Posted by AtomicLabMonkey

But, that's fantasy land because no legislator will ever have enough balls to do it... all they're ever concerned with is carving out enough pork in the federal budget for their home district to keep getting elected.

Exactly, so how would you actually pay for it?

Originally Posted by SpecB#127

When I made less than 20K a year, I still paid taxes, and it did suck!

I make less than $20k, I barely pay anything. Technically ya, but it's still not a large amount in the grand scheme of things.

Originally Posted by SpecB#127

I think I just saw something recently that ranked Nevada 48th in the nation in eduacation, that could be part of it

48th! We are moving on up, lol. I remember when I went to college, it was clear that my education background was not up to par with other peoples. Nevada schools FTL.

Originally Posted by SpecB#127

I am not saying I am in favor of this bill on the house floor in anyway, shape, or form. We have too much governemnt spending as it is (hence our huge ass deficit). We have the infastructure in place already to regulate immigration, yet we turn the other way.

I mean it's a huge undertaking. A lot of the illegal immigrants came into this country legally and just overstayed. So it's not just a border security issue.

[JonnydaJibba]

Well you guys helped me decide that HR4437 is a bad, bad bill. Dunno what I can do with that knowledge tho... maybe go sign some petitions or something.

Also, we are 38th =/ http://www.govspot.com/lists/stateeducation.htm

[SpecB#127]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

Like Scott and JC have said, immigration's benefits over our nation's history have FAR outweighed its costs. I personally would like to see more effort made to get immigrants who inend to be permanently here to go through naturalization, but I also think we need little tolerance for those who commit criminal acts.

+1. I could have not said it better myself.

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by JC

Exactly, so how would you actually pay for it?

It's my fantasy immigration program, it can be paid for just fine by my fantasy government restructuring. None of it will ever happen...

[JC]

The Daily Show clip is online if anyone wants to watch it. First guy, Fareed Zakaria.

http://www.comedycentral.com/shows/t...ws/index.jhtml

[Kevin M]

"I've traveled everywhere. I'm just back from Colorado."



"So, how do they feel about America- in Colorado?"

x eleventy

[sperry]

Originally Posted by AtomicLabMonkey

It's my fantasy immigration program, it can be paid for just fine by my fantasy government restructuring. None of it will ever happen...

I think you're actually making a good poit in a round about way. Immigration reform is a fantasy problem. The solutions being tossed around are all fantastic in nature... like building a Great Wall of Mexico. What a waste of money, for what's not really a pressing problem. Could our immigration policy use a facelift? Sure... but I think we've got much bigger fish to fry 1st:

- we need to stop war mongering/nation building
- we need to drop the war on drugs
- we need to focus our military on more important issues like domestic security and advanced technology so we can maintain superior might with less soldiers
- we need *drastic* reform to our election process
- we need *drastic* reform to our law making process to remove lobbiests from the process
- we need to return the individual freedoms to citizens that have been stolen by corporations and goverment (i.e. DMCA, Patriot Act, etc)
- we need to rebuild medicare/medicade/prescription drugs/social security
- we need to streamline the process for all government funding/budgeting so we stop throwing away billions of dollars
- we need to return to a balanced budget and pay off the trillions of dollars we owe ourselves
- we need to convert our energy use to oil alternatives
- and most of all we need to figure out some way to get a decent education to every child, and every adult that wants one, because if we return to having the brighest and most motivated citizens we'll have the resources to solve all of our problems w/o the knee-jerk and fear mongering that we use to "solve" our problems these days.

Then we can start worrying about all the illegal immigrants, because if we can actually solve all those other problems, we really will have too many people trying to come here.

Also notice that "fight terrorism" isn't on my list. IMO, to win that "war" all we have to do is get our dick out of their mashed potatos and that problem will solve itself.

[MPREZIV]

I can't believe you said "get our dick out of thier mashed potatos", but it makes a good point.

Living in AZ for two years gave me a harsh perspective on the illegal immigrant thing. I know, personally, FAR too many people whom, for example, had their vehicles plowed into by a person who had no insurance, didn't own the car they were driving, and turned out to be an illegal immigrant. There's nothing that anyone could do for them, and they were most often stuck with a jacked up car, and no money to fix it, due to the fact that an illegal immigrant, obviously with no license or insurance, T-boned them at an intersection.

It's just a single example of an occurance that happens DAILY in the greater PHX area, but that and a multitude of other instances have given me a negative stand-point on this particular topic.

I'm sure you all understand!

[JonnydaJibba]

Originally Posted by sperry

IMO, to win that "war" all we have to do is get our dick out of their mashed potatos and that problem will solve itself.

I don't know what that means but it's funny as hell.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by MPREZIV

I can't believe you said "get our dick out of thier mashed potatos", but it makes a good point.

Living in AZ for two years gave me a harsh perspective on the illegal immigrant thing. I know, personally, FAR too many people whom, for example, had their vehicles plowed into by a person who had no insurance, didn't own the car they were driving, and turned out to be an illegal immigrant. There's nothing that anyone could do for them, and they were most often stuck with a jacked up car, and no money to fix it, due to the fact that an illegal immigrant, obviously with no license or insurance, T-boned them at an intersection.

It's just a single example of an occurance that happens DAILY in the greater PHX area, but that and a multitude of other instances have given me a negative stand-point on this particular topic.

I'm sure you all understand!

The problem you're citing isn't illegal immigration, it's bad/unlicensed/uninsured drivers. You know why those people aren't insured/licensed? 'Cause if they try to get a license/training, they'll be deported. If anything, what you're describing is a symptom that would be alleviated if we grant amnesty to illegals.

'Course, amnesty for all illegals might open the floodgates with people that think "all I gotta do it get over the border and I'm a citizen", which is not what I'm proposing or supporting.

[JonnydaJibba]

I think giving them amnesty now is all we can do and is the best decision for the given situation.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by JonnydaJibba

I think giving them amnesty now is all we can do and is the best decision for the given situation.

Or we can just play the old "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" card. Compared to the other issues facing America, this one really probably just can wait. Maybe the local governments closer to the situation can work on their own solutions, but IMO we're frying the wrong fish at a federal level simply because the smoke from the cooking is being used to obscure all the rotting food in the kitchen.

[JonnydaJibba]

Originally Posted by sperry

Or we can just play the old "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" card. Compared to the other issues facing America, this one really probably just can wait. Maybe the local governments closer to the situation can work on their own solutions, but IMO we're frying the wrong fish at a federal level simply because the smoke from the cooking is being used to obscure all the rotting food in the kitchen.

That's a good analogy. And yeah I think that it really isn't the biggest priority right now. I didn't think that earlier today but much resolution has come from this thread. For me anyway.