Trackmaster's event at RFR, May 28/29

[sperry]

I will echo what Tyson and Nick said... BUMPY!!! Dean's 12k/10k suspension was definately a disadvantage out there. I would say about 5 times per lap there are bumps that would hit so hard, I'd bounce my head on the side/roof of the car... thank goodness for that helmet! I rode w/ MikeK at the end of the day, and his stock STi suspension seemed to grip much better. Plus I hear, softer is better for the dirt.

[MattR]

Nice pictures Tyson...I like the one of the car on the trailer, I didn;t know you took that.

Your shot of the radicals is really cool.

[tysonK]

Originally Posted by MattR

Nice pictures Tyson...I like the one of the car on the trailer, I didn;t know you took that.

Your shot of the radicals is really cool.

I took that picture just for you man!

[doubleurx]

So who is gonna change Eric's quote to:

"powder yer sack at the track and you'll have a fresh loaf for dinner"

[bruspeed]

OHH damn Matt! the 57s' looked awesome!

[JC]

Looks like you guys had fun. Some cool pictures for sure.

[doubleurx]

Tyson this is a cool shot.......................... right before you passed me.

[tysonK]

[doubleurx]

This was in my batch as well.

[doubleurx]

three more.

[MattR]

Hahah, I can see the eyes on Mike's car.

[doubleurx]

Yah I didn't see those eyes for too long.

I didn't realize that I left my front plate on until I saw the pictures.

[MikeK]

Originally Posted by doubleurx

I didn't realize that I left my front plate on until I saw the pictures.

Some of the pictures don't have the front plate ... did you lose it on the track?

[MattR]

"Give 'em the Berries!" - Pat F. Riley

[doubleurx]

Originally Posted by MikeK

Some of the pictures don't have the front plate ... did you lose it on the track?

No, I took it off on the first day, but left it on the second day.

[qksubi]

Originally Posted by doubleurx

So who is gonna change Eric's quote to:

"powder yer sack at the track and you'll have a fresh loaf for dinner"

I think its more balls than talent

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by Dean

A pasenger in your car should have little sensation of when your foot comes on and off the brakes as you enter and exit a braking zone. They will know you braked because of the pressure on the belts, and the deceleration, but the actual transition points will be hard to pinpoint.

You caused the brake fade, not your brakes, or the fluid, or the pads. I doubt there is a brake system, even F1 Carbon-carbons that cannot be overworked. Look at the WRC drivers. They have puny brakes compared to yours, yet they last 2 or more stages of some of the hardest driving imagineable. Heck, they can loose only tenths of seconds due to poor brake performance by managing what little they have left.

For a student who is still learning, this is good advice. I don't think it applies very well to actual racing though. I am frequently a passenger in our racecar, and I can feel perfectly well when our driver applies the brakes. He gets on it very aggressively and rides it all the way down into the corner right on the threshold. He is also very quick and outbrakes almost everyone else on the track. Smooth is fast - up to a point. After that point, when the driver is skilled enough, controlled aggression is the only thing that will wring the last few tenths out of the car.

I also disagree with the last paragraph - because the brakes on our racecar work just fine! We have no issues because it has huge rotors & calipers, high temp race pads & good cooling. These are sprint races I'm talking about too, driven at 110% - not an enduro setting where the driver is taking it easy at 90% to save the equipment.

Originally Posted by MikeK

On a related note, my brakes sucked. Nick, Eric and I all suffered bad brake fade. Eric and I ended up bleeding again saturday night, which helped for a session or two, but now my pedal is almost to the floor again, and my rotors are warped or have pad material stuck to them or something

If you're generating that kind of heat, you may have to bleed after every session to keep the pedal firm. It's a pain, but at least you will still have brake response. Do you have any kind of cooling ducts? If not, you should rig some up. Most likely you just have uneven pad material deposits on the rotors, if you're feeling a shudder.

[Pat R.]

Here's my favorite:

[Nick Koan]

my pants don't fit anymore

[qksubi]

Originally Posted by nKoan

my pants don't fit anymore

I need a roof rack like nicks after this weekend

[MikeK]

Originally Posted by AtomicLabMonkey

If you're generating that kind of heat, you may have to bleed after every session to keep the pedal firm. It's a pain, but at least you will still have brake response. Do you have any kind of cooling ducts? If not, you should rig some up. Most likely you just have uneven pad material deposits on the rotors, if you're feeling a shudder.

I have been talking with Nate at subaru specialist about some kind of ducting, since the STi has holes in the front where fog lights would normally go. He is going to take a look at it next week.

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by MikeK

I have been talking with Nate at subaru specialist about some kind of ducting, since the STi has holes in the front where fog lights would normally go. He is going to take a look at it next week.

I would definitely get ducting on before your next track event, it will help immensely. The best way to do it is to fabricate a backing plate which attaches to the spindle & covers the open center portion of the rotor, with a tube sticking out where you clamp the hose on.

[Dean]

Hey guys, I'm working on materials for the Audi event, and since you were just there on the real track, wanted to run the "line" by you.

This is largely from memory from last year.

[tysonK]

Don't forget the now famous MikeK T2 curb attack!

Front right hitting the curb lightly at 120mph with the back wheel slightly touching with the follow through.

Don't try this unless you have stock STi suspension, as stiffer suspensions may cause kidney failure or loss of feeling in steering!

[MattR]

Originally Posted by Dean

Hey guys, I'm working on materials for the Audi event, and since you were just there on the real track, wanted to run the "line" by you.

This is largely from memory from last year.

Dean, once all the video is up, you can see the line in-car...

the only thing I see different from my line, is that I let the car wash all the way to track's edge between 6-7, driver's right...I found you can gain a lot of speed through the uphill around 7 if you get out of 6 "freely', under hard throttle.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by AtomicLabMonkey

For a student who is still learning, this is good advice. I don't think it applies very well to actual racing though. I am frequently a passenger in our racecar, and I can feel perfectly well when our driver applies the brakes. He gets on it very aggressively and rides it all the way down into the corner right on the threshold. He is also very quick and outbrakes almost everyone else on the track. Smooth is fast - up to a point. After that point, when the driver is skilled enough, controlled aggression is the only thing that will wring the last few tenths out of the car.

I also disagree with the last paragraph - because the brakes on our racecar work just fine! We have no issues because it has huge rotors & calipers, high temp race pads & good cooling. These are sprint races I'm talking about too, driven at 110% - not an enduro setting where the driver is taking it easy at 90% to save the equipment.

From a racing perspective, I think you are right on Austin.

My comments were more foccused on the HPDE type events. I guess my point is that go fast and then stand on the brakes is not the best method to get around the track if you can't reliably put the car where you want.

Start at a reasonable speed, get your eyes in the right places, and put the car in the right places, and then add the speed which will mess everything up. Repeat. I'm talkinng about building skills for enjoyable high performance driving, not racing. Being safe, smooth and quick out of the corners are the skills most often needing work at the HPDE level and those aren't going to improve if they can't put the car in the right place at the right time at entry, and through the corner.

Again, for an HPDE type event, unless you are willing to go through a set of pads a day, race pad swaps, bleeds, etc. they are going to need to manage the brakes they brung. Ducting and such will help, but given 4 or more 30 minute sessions a day, most any streetable configuration can be overworked.

Sprints, enduros, and real racing in all its forms are a little different than what most on this board are talking about, though many of the same things apply.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by MattR

Dean, once all the video is up, you can see the line in-car...

the only thing I see different from my line, is that I let the car wash all the way to track's edge between 6-7, driver's right...I found you can gain a lot of speed through the uphill around 7 if you get out of 6 "freely', under hard throttle.

Me recolection though is that that forces a lift, or brake at entry to 7 wheras a tighter line allows a little or no lift.

[sperry]

Dean, my line through 5-6-7 is as Matt described. I follow the double apex line in 5-6 that you have drawn, but I make sure my exit in 6 washes out to the right edge, which give me a short straight braking zone before a late apex around 7.

Also the video where I demonstrate how *not* to drive turn 12 is up in the gallery.

[MikeK]

Dean, I was pushing out to the edge after turn 6 as well, but it is interesting that you think the faster line is to stay tight and on the gas through 7. I will have to try that at the audi club event and see how it feels.

The other difference is that after washing out to the side of the track after turn 15, you have to get left again to avoid the pit wall. Then after the pit wall, you move back to the outside to make the entry into turn 1, so the front straight isn't really a straight line.

Lastly, between 11 and 12 the left side of the track is very bumpy, the smooth line is to stay further to the right.

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by Dean

Sprints, enduros, and real racing in all its forms are a little different than what most on this board are talking about, though many of the same things apply.

Understood; I only said anything because you seemed to be referencing actual racing at one point there in your comments.

[doubleurx]

Originally Posted by MikeK

Dean, I was pushing out to the edge after turn 6 as well, but it is interesting that you think the faster line is to stay tight and on the gas through 7. I will have to try that at the audi club event and see how it feels.

The other difference is that after washing out to the side of the track after turn 15, you have to get left again to avoid the pit wall. Then after the pit wall, you move back to the outside to make the entry into turn 1, so the front straight isn't really a straight line.

Lastly, between 11 and 12 the left side of the track is very bumpy, the smooth line is to stay further to the right.

I agree. To avoid those bumbs into 12, I found it was pretty much center/slightly right was still pretty smooth. The tricky part was navigating the slight turn before the 90 degree at 12. 12 actually has a strange entry and after that straight at 120, it is a pretty fast turn. What sucked on 12 was people would pull right or stay center when you would pass, putting you in the middle of the crappiest part of the track at full throttle. And some mother#$&*^#@ would not lift.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by AtomicLabMonkey

Understood; I only said anything because you seemed to be referencing actual racing at one point there in your comments.

I appologize if I did. I have no first hand experience with real racing, anything along those lines coming form me is strictly hearsay at best, and likely full blown BS!

[Dean]

Originally Posted by MikeK

Dean, I was pushing out to the edge after turn 6 as well, but it is interesting that you think the faster line is to stay tight and on the gas through 7. I will have to try that at the audi club event and see how it feels.

The other difference is that after washing out to the side of the track after turn 15, you have to get left again to avoid the pit wall. Then after the pit wall, you move back to the outside to make the entry into turn 1, so the front straight isn't really a straight line.

Lastly, between 11 and 12 the left side of the track is very bumpy, the smooth line is to stay further to the right.

The track width on the front straight on that picture is wrong, and I haven't had the energy to change it. I'll move the 11-12 line, and I gave a little on the exit of 6.

The only thing that matters in 6-7 is exit speed from 7. if you can drift out at the exit from 6 but still be flush left, not at an angle at the turn in for 7, more power to you. As I recall, I was wanting to put my foot down at turn in while others were still getting off the brakes at the entry of 7. I think the most I had to do with open track was a slight lift before turn in.

[MattR]

Here are some pictures

[MattR]

eyutej

[doubleurx]

Originally Posted by MattR

eyutej

Oh look, speak of the devils!

[Dean]

I forgot to ask... How many sessions did you guys get, and how long were they?

[Pat R.]

5x25 minutes / day

[MattR]

Hosting

[MikeK]

This thread can be unstickyified now

[doubleurx]

Hey Matt and Eric, how 'bout posting some of that awesome video.