24 Hours of Lemons, who's in?

[Libila]

I was reading this month's Grassroots, saw an ad for the 24 Hours of Lemons and noticed an RFR date.

http://www.24hoursoflemons.com/events/reno09/

SECCS LeMons team? I'll be in Reno for this one and I already got the bug in Bobby and Pete's ear.

[Kevin M]

The deadline for entering was a couple weeks ago. Over on the RenoSCCA forum there's a thread by a local guy that's got a team, and is looking for a few more drivers and/or crew.

[Libila]

Originally Posted by Kevin M

The deadline for entering was a couple weeks ago. Over on the RenoSCCA forum there's a thread by a local guy that's got a team, and is looking for a few more drivers and/or crew.

Son of a bitch, I just saw that. The deadline was nine days ago...

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Libila

Son of a bitch, I just saw that. The deadline was nine days ago...

Also, if you were planning on running, your car would have to be well along in development by now. The race is in only 9 weeks.

[Bob Danger]

Originally Posted by Libila

I was reading this month's Grassroots, saw an ad for the 24 Hours of Lemons and noticed an RFR date.

http://www.24hoursoflemons.com/events/reno09/

SECCS LeMons team? I'll be in Reno for this one and I already got the bug in Bobby and Pete's ear.

[MattR]

Originally Posted by Libila

Son of a bitch, I just saw that. The deadline was nine days ago...

Plus, you're slow.

[WRXlerate]

Damn!! That would have been a blast!

[Libila]

Originally Posted by sperry

Also, if you were planning on running, your car would have to be well along in development by now. The race is in only 9 weeks.

I was thinking that trying to put it together weeks before the race would half the fun, not to mention the extra stress on race day.

Originally Posted by MattR

Plus, you're slow.

In more than one sense...

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Libila

I was thinking that trying to put it together weeks before the race would half the fun, not to mention the extra stress on race day.



In more than one sense...

A 24 hr endurance race with heavy traffic is stressful enough... why would you want the additional stress of "gee I hope my car doesn't spray hot flaming oil all over me because we fabricated the oil cooler 10 minutes before the race started, plus I'm not sure if the cage will hold if if I roll it since it was slapped together, not to mention that I haven't had any sleep in the last 5 days and I'm driving half asleep."

Just because the entry fee and car costs are low, doesn't mean that you don't have to take the event seriously. I'd be pissed as hell if I'm out there with a team that's risking my safety because they decided to just throw something together last minute. Luckily the event organizers vet all the entrants to keep teams like that at home.

[Libila]

Originally Posted by sperry

A 24 hr endurance race with heavy traffic is stressful enough... why would you want the additional stress of "gee I hope my car doesn't spray hot flaming oil all over me because we fabricated the oil cooler 10 minutes before the race started, plus I'm not sure if the cage will hold if if I roll it since it was slapped together, not to mention that I haven't had any sleep in the last 5 days and I'm driving half asleep."

Just because the entry fee and car costs are low, doesn't mean that you don't have to take the event seriously. I'd be pissed as hell if I'm out there with a team that's risking my safety because they decided to just throw something together last minute. Luckily the event organizers vet all the entrants to keep teams like that at home.

You're right, obviously my mentality is flawed because I think a car capable of completing an endurance race can be built in less than nine weeks. Way to blow my response out of proportion guy.

[Bob Danger]

Originally Posted by Libila

I was thinking that trying to put it together weeks before the race would half the fun, not to mention the extra stress on race day.

That would be the opposite of fun. In fact I believe I would kill someone, probably you.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Libila

You're right, obviously my mentality is flawed because I think a car capable of completing an endurance race can be built in less than nine weeks. Way to blow my response out of proportion guy.

The fact that you think my take on safety is blown out of proportion tells me I took what you said exactly right. Plus the fact that you think you can build a race car on the cheap on short notice in April right when every other racer in the country is trying to finish up their cars for the start of the season further cements my belief that you don't know what you're talking about getting yourself into.

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by Libila

You're right, obviously my mentality is flawed because I think a car capable of completing an endurance race can be built in less than nine weeks. Way to blow my response out of proportion guy.

For a pro fabricator working on the car full time, sure. Otherwise, good luck with that.

[Libila]

Originally Posted by Bob Danger

That would be the opposite of fun. In fact I believe I would kill someone, probably you.

Just because you have a gun and you think you're tough doesn't mean you can kill me Bobby.

Originally Posted by sperry

The fact that you think my take on safety is blown out of proportion tells me I took what you said exactly right. Plus the fact that you think you can build a race car on the cheap on short notice in April right when every other racer in the country is trying to finish up their cars for the start of the season further cements my belief that you don't know what you're talking about getting yourself into.

I never questioned your take on safety, it was your perception of time. Sure, it was ambitious but it doesn't mean it's not possible to do it properly. Your ostentatiously trite response, coupled with your favorite quote tell me your own racing endeavors have left you downcast and bitter. That may just be my impression of you though, seeing as I've thought you were standoffish ever since I met you years ago. I expected criticism when presenting this idea but I also expected some of it to be constructive since there are multiple active members of this site with numerous years of motorsports experience. Apparently I expected too much

The one thing you're right about is the fact that I've never built an endurance car. But everyone starts somewhere, and a race such as this seems like a fun, safe and yes, fiscally easy place to start.

[Bob Danger]

Originally Posted by Libila

Just because you have a gun and you think you're tough doesn't mean you can kill me Bobby.

You'd be to distracted by the new Katy Perry dance remix to hear me building some crazy contraption, which will kill you in an elaborate way, right behind you. Guns are to impersonal.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Libila

Just because you have a gun and you think you're tough doesn't mean you can kill me Bobby.



I never questioned your take on safety, it was your perception of time. Sure, it was ambitious but it doesn't mean it's not possible to do it properly. Your ostentatiously trite response, coupled with your favorite quote tell me your own racing endeavors have left you downcast and bitter. That may just be my impression of you though, seeing as I've thought you were standoffish ever since I met you years ago. I expected criticism when presenting this idea but I also expected some of it to be constructive since there are multiple active members of this site with numerous years of motorsports experience. Apparently I expected too much

The one thing you're right about is the fact that I've never built an endurance car. But everyone starts somewhere, and a race such as this seems like a fun, safe and yes, fiscally easy place to start.

Call me downcast and bitter all you want, it doesn't change the fact that someone will little racecar fabrication experience simply cannot build a safe car in 9-weeks at any price. I know I couldn't do it, which is why I'm looking at joining a team that has actual pro-builders who already started their build back in January (with a car that was already a caged racecar no less, you know because of the tight build schedule).

Just because you disagree with what I'm saying or how I'm saying it, does not mean my criticism isn't accurate. And telling someone they're likely to kill themselves or others because of their inexperience may not be positive, but it is constructive.

If this race had a $5000 car limit, my tone would be totally different because you could start with something already relatively reliable and safe like a 90' Civic or something... but trying to turn a $500 hunk of junk into a safe racecar takes pro-level fab and repair skills or thousands of dollars to hire said skills. As much as I respect the experience of the folks here on SECCS, I don't personally know anyone here capable of pulling that off in 9-weeks.

If you're looking for somewhere to start. Start with a go-kart or autocross. Get into a spec-Miata or time trials of some sort. Move to a Legends car, or maybe Formula Ford. Or better yet, do what I'm doing and look to get on a team that's just looking for help... help out in the pits at a race, maybe drive a stint or two at Lemons, help out a shop with their build, etc. That's the safe and cheap way to learn (though even a seat in a Lemons car will still cost you $1000-$2000 depending on how much of the safety equipment you've already got).

[sybir]

I should have bought the ex-PGT DSM - it was sitting outside in Nate's yard for years, with an SCCA-approved cage, fire gear, race shells, etc. That was a perfect Lemons car, if I had somewhere to put the damn thing that wouldn't piss off the neighbors.
That's the only way to do something on a short schedule, correctly - find something already done, and you'll never find it with a $500 budget.

Otherwise, I get scary visions of people going "dude, DOM and a welder is expensive, can't we use water pipe and pipe fittings?"

Guess what - the people on this board that are involved with motorsports, or have been, are only trying to save you from doing something stupid or unsafe, not to mention a money pit. Every single Lemons car is a joke as far as budget is concerned. The $500 is a nominal fee meant to keep the cars true to beater origins - any car that makes it on the track (and runs more than 3 laps without exploding) has a bare minimum of 5-10k in it in parts and time. There's a reason "safety equipment" isn't a part of that budget - you don't fuck around with it. Tensions run high at that race even with all the comedy, because there are very real dangers on the track with other cars, and people have a lot of time invested in these things.

But we're all just a bunch of assholes on the internet, what do we know?

[Kevin M]

Guys, I don't think it would be impossible to build a safe LeMon in just 9 weeks. Really, if you use a car (like, say, an Impreza) that has bolt-in 6 point rollcages available, buy FIA-rated seats and harness, do something for fire suppression even if it's nothing more than a properly mounted extinguisher within reach of the driver, and put passable track wheels, tires, and a brake system refreshing with decent pads and fluid and you're there. It's LeMons; making your car reliable is only important if you actually want to get some track time out of it and really, that can be done in a week or two as well. Tim's talking about LeMons, not 25 Hours of Thunderhill. These cars aren't engineered racecars to win if all you want is the experience of getting out there and being part of the fun. If you want to win, yeah it takes a serious effort with sufficient planning and testing etc. etc. etc. But to call Tim a complete idiot for wanting to do what that whole race is about- screwing around without spending a ton of money or putting anyone at risk of serious injury- you most certainly can have an entry ready in 2 months.

Safe track cars are easy, just not cheap. If you get out there and dump the water out of your radiator on lap 3, that's on you. It's not like NASCAR where you are potentially altering the outcome of the points championship. There's a reason the purses for these things is paid out in nickels- it's all a big joke. Being safe and being a legitimate race team are not mutually inclusive.

[Dean]

I have to largely agree with Kevin. There are any number of cars you could drop safety equipment into in a matter of days and go run lemons safely. There are probably half a dozen on craigslist right now. Even if you have to have the cage custom fabbed, that doesn't count against the $500, so that is even doable.

Here are some candidates from a 60 second search.

http://reno.craigslist.org/cto/1093024632.html
http://reno.craigslist.org/cto/1093489981.html
http://reno.craigslist.org/cto/1093858951.html
http://reno.craigslist.org/cto/1093902240.html

[Bob Danger]

Rufus would be an awesome Lemon. FR, LSD, and a 5 speed tranny for $25. Not to mention the huge market of new, and used aftermarket parts. There's no way he'd do it, but he'd be great at it.

[Libila]

Originally Posted by sperry

If you're looking for somewhere to start. Start with a go-kart or autocross. Get into a spec-Miata or time trials of some sort. Move to a Legends car, or maybe Formula Ford. Or better yet, do what I'm doing and look to get on a team that's just looking for help... help out in the pits at a race, maybe drive a stint or two at Lemons, help out a shop with their build, etc. That's the safe and cheap way to learn (though even a seat in a Lemons car will still cost you $1000-$2000 depending on how much of the safety equipment you've already got).

When I said I was looking for somewhere to start I was indicating endurance racing. I've been autocrossing for years and I mainly got involved because of this club. I've done HPDEs and track days at numerous tracks state side and abroad. I've still got tons to learn and I consider myself still new, but I'm not ignorant.

I understand you guys are worried about safety above all else and I share that sentiment. However, all this bickering started because you assumed I was going to make a cage out of PVC and Elmer's glue. There is no way I would try to build the cage myself nor do I think this event is something to be taken lightly.

I'm going to try and contact the team Kevin mentioned earlier and see if they still need an extra set of hands. At the least I'll head out there and watch for a while.

PS: Bobby, I wouldn't let you put Rufus through LeMons. As I've always said, if you get rid of that car I want it.

[Kevin M]

I did a lot of the background work type stuff that you might be interested in if you want to get something together for next season. I think you can get an Impreza out there and contend for the win with maybe $3k into the car, given enough time.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Libila

I'm going to try and contact the team Kevin mentioned earlier and see if they still need an extra set of hands. At the least I'll head out there and watch for a while.

You want me to ask Fred when I see him this weekend to see how well I fit in the car?

[Kevin M]

Fred is pretty likely to be at the Solo tech day tomorrow too, Tim.

[Bob Danger]

Originally Posted by Kevin M

Fred is pretty likely to be at the Solo tech day tomorrow too, Tim.

Tim is in Misery.