European Grand Prix (Spoilers without tags!)

[Dean]

OK, how come the best drivers in the world can't tell when they don't have traction, or keep from wrecking at least 3 cars on the first lap, or more likely, the first turn? Oh, I forgot, the first lap is the only time any passing ever happens.

And why can't the most heavily financed race teams in the world read a radar and NASCAR "Country Bumpkins" can? The one team that did apparently didn't until the warm up lap.

I'm not in an F1 car, but I have driven at Laguna Seca, Sears Point and Thunderhill in pouring rain with standing water and inch plus deep rivers on different tires including R compounds without plowing off the track. I realize it is not the same thing, but at the same time, it F'ing is. Driving within the available traction is a critical part of driving. And I don't have spotters spread all over the track telling me what conditions are like as I assume F1 teams do.

Don't even start me on improperly tightened "lug nuts".

Thank you for reading my Anti-F1 Rant... Let the begin.

[tysonK]

I loved everything about that race.

[Nick Koan]

Dean, I think you (as well as all the teams present) are underestimating how much water fell in the opening laps. Almost everyone came back for, or was at least planning on coming back for, full wet tires before the race got red flagged. They probably should have delayed the race for 10-15 minutes or so, but since F1 races in the rain (unlike some other series) I guess they figured it wouldn't be that bad.

And yes, they still should have been able to drive with the conditions, but I think this sudden downpour just caught everyone off guard.

[sperry]

Dean, here's the problem. You drive one lap in dry weather. Then the next, there's 2" of standing water ahead, and no way to know it. Also, you're on tires that have no traction if the ground is a little damp.

I'm surprised *anyone* made that corner. Attempting to compare driving a street car on R-compound treaded street tires to a F1 car on drys is ridiculous, even with a disclaimer. You've seen iced over streets such that attempting to drive down them at any over 2 mph wouldn't be possible... well that's what the bottom of that hill is like in an F1 car. You can't blame the drivers for over driving the "available traction" when there is literally no available traction.

It's not like this situation was a bunch of mickey mousing around by inexperienced teams... the rain that came simply came a lap or two early, and *much* harder than expected. A lot of the time it's faster to wait out a rain squall on hot dry tires because the traffic keeps the line dry which is why everyone at the front went out on dry tires. But the rain came before they could get heat in the tires, and came so fast there were rivers running across the track.

I will say, it was pretty funny watching the pace car suddenly accelerate to get out of the way of Liuzzi's balistic car. Plus the Winkelhock pit lane start putting him at the front of the field for the restart was awesome.

[MPREZIV]

Awesome race. 'Nuff said.


Oh yes, and Dean mentions Nascar "bumpkins" being able to read radar... too bad when it says rain they're too pussy to race.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by sperry

Dean, here's the problem. You drive one lap in dry weather. Then the next, there's 2" of standing water ahead, and no way to know it. Also, you're on tires that have no traction if the ground is a little damp.

I'm surprised *anyone* made that corner. Attempting to compare driving a street car on R-compound treaded street tires to a F1 car on drys is ridiculous, even with a disclaimer. You've seen iced over streets such that attempting to drive down them at any over 2 mph wouldn't be possible... well that's what the bottom of that hill is like in an F1 car. You can't blame the drivers for over driving the "available traction" when there is literally no available traction.

It's not like this situation was a bunch of mickey mousing around by inexperienced teams... the rain that came simply came a lap or two early, and *much* harder than expected. A lot of the time it's faster to wait out a rain squall on hot dry tires because the traffic keeps the line dry which is why everyone at the front went out on dry tires. But the rain came before they could get heat in the tires, and came so fast there were rivers running across the track.

I will say, it was pretty funny watching the pace car suddenly accelerate to get out of the way of Liuzzi's balistic car. Plus the Winkelhock pit lane start putting him at the front of the field for the restart was awesome.

You imply they don't have radios, spotters, etc... And you forget the drivers who made it through that section before and after the drivers that plowed into the wall. And damn it, last I knew, even hard compound dry F1 tires were 1/3 grooves, especially with 1 or fewer laps on them. If rain is hitting my visor so I can't see where I'm going, I'm slowing the F down which apparently some did.

I also really like the safety car scurrying away.

It sure looked like mickey mousing around! And clearly one team had a slightly knowledgeable meteorologist.

And thank you for the flame.

[Nick Koan]

I think most teams were banking on it not raining.

Moving to inters early and not needing them is worse than not switching and needing them.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by nKoan

I think most teams were banking on it not raining.

Moving to inters early and not needing them is worse than not switching and needing them.

Unless you crash the car, which I am still not convinced there is an excuse for.

The announcers sure seamed to know it was going to rain and when.

And the teams had right up until 5 minutes before the start to change. Radar should be pretty good 5-10 minutes out...

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Dean

Unless you crash the car, which I am still not convinced there is an excuse for.

The announcers sure seamed to know it was going to rain and when.

And the teams had right up until 5 minutes before the start to change. Radar should be pretty good 5-10 minutes out...

At 5 minutes before grid, teams were planning on rain at about 3 laps in. No one in their right mind would put inters on for a dry start. They might as well start from the pit lane... which is what the only car that did start on inters did.

And the teams *don't* have spotters. The crew is just at the pit wall watching the TV screens. There is no way for the drivers to know that at the end of that straight there was a swimming pool until it's too late to slow for it, which is why there was a pile of 6 cars off course there.

My point is that, while it looked like a bunch of people comically making the same mistake, it's really more like a bunch of teams getting caught out by a situation that was almost unavoidable. The same thing's happened at Spa a bunch of times over the years, and more recently 2 or 3 seasons ago, there was the same deal in Brazil (IIRC). This is just what happens in F1 when there's a sudden downpour.

[wrxkidid]

im seriously considering paying one of you guys with dvr to record and burn the races so i can watch them since i always seem to be doing something during them

sounds like a fun race.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by sperry

At 5 minutes before grid, teams were planning on rain at about 3 laps in. No one in their right mind would put inters on for a dry start. They might as well start from the pit lane... which is what the only car that did start on inters did.

And the teams *don't* have spotters. The crew is just at the pit wall watching the TV screens. There is no way for the drivers to know that at the end of that straight there was a swimming pool until it's too late to slow for it, which is why there was a pile of 6 cars off course there.

My point is that, while it looked like a bunch of people comically making the same mistake, it's really more like a bunch of teams getting caught out by a situation that was almost unavoidable. The same thing's happened at Spa a bunch of times over the years, and more recently 2 or 3 seasons ago, there was the same deal in Brazil (IIRC). This is just what happens in F1 when there's a sudden downpour.

I disagree. You do if it is going to pour during the first lap!!! The cars that wrecked (according to this and this) were in grid spots 17,18,19 and 21. The leaders managed to make it through without dumping their cars, so it was clearly drivable. Yes, Button was up behind Massa and Alonso, but they managed to make the corner when he didn't. And cars from the other grid positions in between and after made it as well... So the cars are not undriveable, or the whole field would be piled up against the tires.

22 of the supposed best drivers in the world in the best equipment in the world should be able to make it through at least the first damn lap without colliding or crashing, wet or dry, but they just don't appear to be able to. I'm not positive, but I don't recall an F1 race I've seen this year where every car has completed lap one unscathed. That is just plain stupid, and the stewards and teams/owners shouldn't put up with it.

43 or so "bumpkins" in multiple series can often manage to go 3-4 wide on an oval and 2 wide on road course through the first lap and sometimes many more without destroying any cars.

And why don't they know what the track conditions are? What, nobody on the team can get in the Ferrari red $50,000 golf cart and go look or call a buddy with a cell phone in F1? Or is it that they don't know how to tune one of the 57 LCD displays they have to the F'ing weather channel or better yet, the race broadcast?

And what the hell good is a V8 turning 19000 RPM at 4MPG. How is that state of the art. That sounds dumber than a race series still running push rod V-8s with carburetors. I know they are talking about taking F1 "green", but they should have been leading the way, not bowing to environmental pressure.

Where is the 2000lb lithium-air battery or fuel cell powered F1 car capable of 4-500WHP and 60 laps without "refueling". Now that would be technologically advanced.

And single nut wheels were used because it was the only reasonable way to mount a spoked wheel. That is how they did it on the Conestoga wagons, it must still be good enough for F1. Why not invent some cool 5 pin cam lock thingy and heaven forbid a way to monitor if the damn thing is loose???

ALMS is more advanced than F1 and the technology is much more likely to make it into street cars.

F1 is not racing, it is 22 companies with to much money and not enough common sense and drivers to match.

F1 is a joke.

Again, thank you for participating in Dean's F1 rant thread...

[sperry]

Dean. You clearly do not understand F1. Every statement in your rant exudes misinformation about F1 and exemplifies that you do not know what you're talking about.

Originally Posted by Dean

I disagree. You do if it is going to pour during the first lap!!! The cars that wrecked (according to this and this) were in grid spots 17,18,19 and 21. The leaders managed to make it through without dumping their cars, so it was clearly drivable. Yes, Button was up behind Massa and Alonso, but they managed to make the corner when he didn't. And cars from the other grid positions in between and after made it as well... So the cars are not undriveable, or the whole field would be piled up against the tires.

The leaders got through because they were in front where a) they could see better than those behind due to less spray and b) because it wasn't raining that hard as they went through. I think you don't understand what happens when a deluge breaks loose... it goes from driveable track to undriveable track in 2 seconds as the runoff floods across the road.

Originally Posted by Dean

22 of the supposed best drivers in the world in the best equipment in the world should be able to make it through at least the first damn lap without colliding or crashing, wet or dry, but they just don't appear to be able to. I'm not positive, but I don't recall an F1 race I've seen this year where every car has completed lap one unscathed. That is just plain stupid, and the stewards and teams/owners shouldn't put up with it.

43 or so "bumpkins" in multiple series can often manage to go 3-4 wide on an oval and 2 wide on road course through the first lap and sometimes many more without destroying any cars.

NASCAR vs F1 has been done to death, but think about this: if you bump two cup cars together, you might just bend some sheet metal. If you bump two F1 cars together, they explode in a cloud of carbon fiber dust.

Originally Posted by Dean

And why don't they know what the track conditions are? What, nobody on the team can get in the Ferrari red $50,000 golf cart and go look or call a buddy with a cell phone in F1? Or is it that they don't know how to tune one of the 57 LCD displays they have to the F'ing weather channel or better yet, the race broadcast?

Like I said earlier, there's no way some dude in the stands with a cell phone is going to be able to call the pits, talk to someone about the track conditions, and get that info relayed to the driver in the 2 seconds between a wet track and an undriveable track. The only warning those guys get are the yellow flags, and even then with all the spray in the air, the up-track flaggers might not even be able see the incident, meaning no yellows until the flaggers at the incident can contact race control and get the info relayed to the flaggers on the straight. You've been to FNC school... imagine the situation from that perspective. By your logic, a car should never crash into a stopped car... yet you see oil on the track shunt multiple cars into each other all the time, no?

Originally Posted by Dean

And what the hell good is a V8 turning 19000 RPM at 4MPG. How is that state of the art. That sounds dumber than a race series still running push rod V-8s with carburetors. I know they are talking about taking F1 "green", but they should have been leading the way, not bowing to environmental pressure.

Where is the 2000lb lithium-air battery or fuel cell powered F1 car capable of 4-500WHP and 60 laps without "refueling". Now that would be technologically advanced.

How about reading the upcoming sporting regulation rumors. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/55951

Originally Posted by Dean

And single nut wheels were used because it was the only reasonable way to mount a spoked wheel. That is how they did it on the Conestoga wagons, it must still be good enough for F1. Why not invent some cool 5 pin cam lock thingy and heaven forbid a way to monitor if the damn thing is loose???

WTF is this about? Let me see... five lug nuts take... OMG!! five times longer than one!?! I never would have guessed that's why F1 went from multiple lugs on the old cars to center-lugs. Oh, not to mention the rules that require them to use a single lug and a provided air gun.

Originally Posted by Dean

ALMS is more advanced than F1 and the technology is much more likely to make it into street cars.

And ALMS is going out of business. Looks like FIA is doing something right that ALMS isn't.

Originally Posted by Dean

F1 is not racing, it is 22 companies with to much money and not enough common sense and drivers to match.

F1 is a joke.

Again, thank you for participating in Dean's F1 rant thread...

Um... it's 11 teams (McLaren, Renault, Ferrari, Honda, BMW, Toyota, Red Bull, Williams, Toro Rosso, Spyker, and Super Aguri) and 10 companies (McLaren, Mercedes, Renault, Ferrari, Honda, BMW, Toyota, Red Bull, Williams, and Spyker) if you consider the parts sharing between chassis and engine manufacturers. But since you're such an expert on F1 and its problems, I'm sure that's what you meant.

Oh, and "too".

[Dean]

Originally Posted by sperry

The leaders got through because they were in front where a) they could see better than those behind due to less spray and b) because it wasn't raining that hard as they went through. I think you don't understand what happens when a deluge breaks loose... it goes from driveable track to undriveable track in 2 seconds as the runoff floods across the road.

I know what a deluge is, and this is total BS. The majority of the field was less than 5- 10 seconds apart, and the visibility for P3 vs P4 had to be negligible, and by P5, the yellows were flying, yet 3 cars post P17 also went off. You have failed to explain anything, just made excuses.

Originally Posted by sperry

NASCAR vs F1 has been done to death, but think about this: if you bump two cup cars together, you might just bend some sheet metal. If you bump two F1 cars together, they explode in a cloud of carbon fiber dust.

Duh... All the more reason for the "best drivers in the world" not to bump them together!!! 50-70 year old drivers manage it in vintage cars, why can't these 19-30 something drivers?

Originally Posted by sperry

Like I said earlier, there's no way some dude in the stands with a cell phone is going to be able to call the pits, talk to someone about the track conditions, and get that info relayed to the driver in the 2 seconds between a wet track and an undriveable track.

You missed my point. The "top" racing series should have the best track information and communication and they don't.

Originally Posted by sperry

How about reading the upcoming sporting regulation rumors. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/55951

Uh, I mentioned their "green" initiative, but it is a response, not leadership.

Originally Posted by sperry

WTF is this about? Let me see... five lug nuts take... OMG!! five times longer than one!?! I never would have guessed that's why F1 went from multiple lugs on the old cars to center-lugs. Oh, not to mention the rules that require them to use a single lug and a provided air gun.

Uh, the accident in qualifying... I mentioned this in my first post. Single lugs fail, and they are 500BC tech. They should have something better, or at least be able to monitor them... 5 lugs don't take 5 times longer with the right tool and I'm not saying that is the answer.

Originally Posted by sperry

And ALMS is going out of business. Looks like FIA is doing something right that ALMS isn't.

I mentioned nothing about profitability but leadership, technology and it's application to future street cars.

Originally Posted by sperry

Um... it's 11 teams (McLaren, Renault, Ferrari, Honda, BMW, Toyota, Red Bull, Williams, Toro Rosso, Spyker, and Super Aguri) and 10 companies (McLaren, Mercedes, Renault, Ferrari, Honda, BMW, Toyota, Red Bull, Williams, and Spyker) if you consider the parts sharing between chassis and engine manufacturers.

Sorry, I forgot they are two car teams with only one pit so in conditions like this, they can't both pit at the same time...

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by Dean

I know what a deluge is, and this is total BS. The majority of the field was less than 5- 10 seconds apart, and the visibility for P3 vs P4 had to be negligible, and by P5, the yellows were flying, yet 3 cars post P17 also went off. You have failed to explain anything, just made excuses.

Car A takes turn 1 with little to no water on the track and proceeds to turn 2. Car B hits water on turn one and proceeds to the sand trap. That is an explanation, not an excuse.

Originally Posted by Dean

Duh... All the more reason for the "best drivers in the world" not to bump them together!!! 50-70 year old drivers manage it in vintage cars, why can't these 19-30 something drivers?

Vintage drivers aren't paid millions to bring home points finishes that are determined by actions that must be correctly executed with millimetric precision with a literal blink of an eye to determine what that action should be. The point of F1 is to win; the point of vintage racing is to not crash.

Originally Posted by Dean

You missed my point. The "top" racing series should have the best track information and communication and they don't.

What series that runs on tracks where you can't see every turn from a single point has better communication? If that series was caught in pouring rain on dry tires would none of them go off? Whose fault would it be?

Originally Posted by Dean

Uh, I mentioned their "green" initiative, but it is a response, not leadership.

Name a series doing more to be more "green." I would say that F1 is "leading" in this regard.

Originally Posted by Dean

Uh, the accident in qualifying... I mentioned this in my first post. Single lugs fail, and they are 500BC tech. They should have something better, or at least be able to monitor them... 5 lugs don't take 5 times longer with the right tool and I'm not saying that is the answer.

Race cars break. At least the ones that are engineered to the razor's edge in order to be the fastest car on the track.

Originally Posted by Dean

I mentioned nothing about profitability but leadership, technology and it's application to future street cars.

Yeah, that's how the priorities fall at the FIA and comepting teams.

Originally Posted by Dean

Sorry, I forgot they are two car teams with only one pit so in conditions like this, they can't both pit at the same time...

ZOMG they do things differently than major American racing! Heretics! BURN THE WITCHES!!!!

[Dean]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

...

OK Scott.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Dean

I know what a deluge is, and this is total BS. The majority of the field was less than 5- 10 seconds apart, and the visibility for P3 vs P4 had to be negligible, and by P5, the yellows were flying, yet 3 cars post P17 also went off. You have failed to explain anything, just made excuses.Duh... All the more reason for the "best drivers in the world" not to bump them together!!! 50-70 year old drivers manage it in vintage cars, why can't these 19-30 something drivers?You missed my point. The "top" racing series should have the best track information and communication and they don't.Uh, I mentioned their "green" initiative, but it is a response, not leadership.Uh, the accident in qualifying... I mentioned this in my first post. Single lugs fail, and they are 500BC tech. They should have something better, or at least be able to monitor them... 5 lugs don't take 5 times longer with the right tool and I'm not saying that is the answer.I mentioned nothing about profitability but leadership, technology and it's application to future street cars.Sorry, I forgot they are two car teams with only one pit so in conditions like this, they can't both pit at the same time...

I'm not trying to say that the corner was unnavigable at any speed, just that despite the driver's skill, cars, communications, flaggers, etc, it's still an extreme situation that catches even the best out. Alonso made the corner, Hamilton did not. Everything else this season indicated the two drivers are at least equivalent in skill, if not a tip of the hat to Hamilton. They both had the same cars, the same team, the same information... hell Hamilton's info should have been better because Alonso should have radioed in the conditions... yet Hamilton went off. Why? Because he was at the back of the pack that had to go through the corner after the track flooded. And post P17... well those are the cars that have a hard time making corners in the dry.

Back to the dumb NASCAR analogy... I bet there's 400% more contact in NASCAR in one lap at Talladega, than a whole season of F1. It seems to me the F1 guys are doing a terrific job staying out of each others way. And those vintage drivers aren't exactly driving with the same intensity of an F1 race. I'm at a loss why you continue to attempt to find analogies where the comparison is sketchy at best. F1 is not like any other race series... it's a time trial more than a race, and the technology (aero specifically) is so different over other series, that the racing is truly different and nearly incomparable to other forms of motorsports.

Bitching about F1's green initiative indicates how out of touch with the sport you are. Of course it's difficult for FIA to change the sport... the number one driving element of the rules is politics. ALMS can step up to diesel and ethanol pretty easily, they have like 4 teams to appease. FIA has twice the teams, like 15 country's governments, and 100 times the money in the sport to dance around with. Not to mention: ALMS is failing because their rules changes all the time make it hard to compete, meaning teams leave the sport for other series, meaning there's less prize money and prestige... etc.

And the single lug thing... it failed because either the air gun malfunctioned (unlikely) or because the mechanic putting the wheel on didn't leave the gun on long enough (very likely). Those single lugs have locks on them... it's been probably a decade (if not two) since a lug failed on its own. The same can't be said about those NASCAR 5-lug hubs. And I assure you, the center lug on an F1 is not like the lug on a wooden wagon wheel. Give me a break. Are you going to argue next that the cars are made out of char-coal, which is why they break in wrecks so easily?

Dean, you are plainly out of touch with F1. I'll agree the sport has all sorts of problems, but you've touched on none of them.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by sperry

it's a time trial more than a race, and the technology (aero specifically) is so different over other series, that the racing is truly different and nearly incomparable to other forms of motorsports.

This I buy, and probably a large source of my frustration with it.

Originally Posted by sperry

the number one driving element of the rules is politics.

The other major portion of my frustration...

Originally Posted by sperry

And the single lug thing... it failed because either the air gun malfunctioned (unlikely) or because the mechanic putting the wheel on didn't leave the gun on long enough (very likely).

Some red light should go off somewhere on the gun, in the car or somewhere. This is at least two in 2 years in F1, and it happens in other series as well. I know $4!+ breaks, but this often human error shouldn't crash a car.

Originally Posted by sperry

Those single lugs have locks on them... it's been probably a decade (if not two) since a lug failed on its own. The same can't be said about those NASCAR 5-lug hubs.

but when 1 or more of 5 aren't tight, the wheel doesn't fly off! You of all people know that!

Originally Posted by sperry

And I assure you, the center lug on an F1 is not like the lug on a wooden wagon wheel. Give me a break. Are you going to argue next that the cars are made out of char-coal, which is why they break in wrecks so easily?

Exactly!

Originally Posted by sperry

Dean, you are plainly out of touch with F1.

And I plan to stay that way! To me it is entertainment, and making fun of the observed apparent stupidity is part of the entertainment!

[khail19]

Originally Posted by sperry

NASCAR vs F1 has been done to death, but think about this: if you bump two cup cars together, you might just bend some sheet metal. If you bump two F1 cars together, they explode in a cloud of carbon fiber dust.

Scott, everyone knows that carbon fiber is completely indestructible. Therefore, carbon fiber dust is impossible to create. I have now rendered your F1 credibility useless, so Dean wins.

[100_Percent_Juice]

Originally Posted by khail19

I have now rendered your F1 credibility useless

You didn't have enough magic to do that.

*MISS*

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by Dean

but when 1 or more of 5 aren't tight, the wheel doesn't fly off! You of all people know that!

Yes they do, I've seen it.

I have to agree with Scott & Kevin; if you want to bitch about F1 that's fine, there are plenty of things wrong with it, but the points you listed are not really valid.