Coils vs springs debacle

[WRX06TR]

I know this has been talked about millions of times...

Anyway, I currently have STi springs on my stock WRX struts and I am looking to upgrade over the summer. I am looking to spend 1k. I have really been leaning toward the Tokico D specs with RCE yellow springs (about $900). But there are those "bargain" coils around, like the Megan and BC Racing coils (around $900). I usually don't like to do the "cheap stuff" but Tein and KW coils are just out of my price range.

My problem with coils is that I'm not sure if I will be adjusting them much, I tend to be the set it and forget it type. I know the Tokico's have some adjustability but not as much as coils. My car is my DD and some AutoX. I don't care about ride a whole lot, I mean Reno roads suck enough. I hate noise though. So I don't want to buy coils that will be clunking in 2 years as I have heard can happen with the BC's and Megan's.

Any advice is appreciated...

[sperry]

There is nothing special about "coilovers" compared to springs. They're exactly the same design, you're just paying for the adjustability. If you don't need adjustability, you don't need coilovers.

The real difference is that many people try to run lower/stiffer springs on struts not designed for them which is where the concept that "coilovers are superior" comes from. A properly matched set of non adjustable shocks and springs will handle just as well as coilovers. Though, they probably won't cost significantly less.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by sperry

Though, they probably won't cost significantly less.

Scott's last sentance says it all. A coilover package is tuned to work together and any strut/spring combo unless equally engineered and likely of similar cost will probably under perform.

Save up longer, or find a used set of Teins or RCE(KWv3s).

That is all.

[100_Percent_Juice]

After so many miles don't you have to rebuild coilovers?

[WRX06TR]

Originally Posted by Dean

Scott's last sentance says it all. A coilover package is tuned to work together and any strut/spring combo unless equally engineered and likely of similar cost will probably under perform.

Save up longer, or find a used set of Teins or RCE(KWv3s).

That is all.

True, but this contradicts Scott's first statement of "If you don't need to adjust them, you don't need coils..."

[Dean]

Originally Posted by WRX06TR

True, but this contradicts Scott's first statement of "If you don't need to adjust them, you don't need coils..."

No, it doesn't. Any moron can throw a spring on a strut and sell it. Any moron can buy springs and struts seperately based on opinions on nasioc, iClub, etc... Heck, most anybody can buy a threaded body damper, screw/weld on some perches and sell a cheap "coilover".

Very few companies that actually know what they are doing take the time and energy required to correctly match springs and dampers to make a well engineered solution. Those that do usually wrap them all up together and sell them as coilovers. There are there exceptions that sell spring/strut combos, sure, but not many.

In either case, you are paying for the engineering, adjustable or not.

If you are looking to upgrade beyond stock, or springs on stock struts, be prepared to pay for the whole package from one reputable manufacturer. Tein and RCE/KW have proven records in the Subaru world for getting it right.

Señor Cheap Bastard is about bang for your buck, not just cheap for cheap's sake. Kludging together a spring/strut combo or buying cheap coils to save a few bucks is highly likely to bite you in the ass for any number of reasons.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by 100_Percent_Juice

After so many miles don't you have to rebuild coilovers?

Yep. But it's usually cheaper than replacing the whole strut like you have to do when the stock struts fail that aren't rebuildable.

All struts wear out. Adjustable struts can at least be adjusted to allow you to use them longer, and then aren't disposable. At least, the good adjustable struts that come with most coilovers are. I'd guess a lot of the cheaper coilover kits don't come with rebuildable struts.

[cody]

I just upgraded from KYB AGX struts to Koni inserts. The car's at C&C gettin an alignment today so I haven't been able to test them out really yet, but they're highly regarded as the best damper option for stock diameter springs for under $1k. I got mine cheaper but they're readily available for about $675/a set, shipped. Pricing just went down recently.

The best part is that they have a lifetime warranty and an excellent track record for customer service. I've seen quite a few testimonials regarding their warranty and they're all glowing...just like the reviews of them for street/autoX/track use.

The car already feels more solid yet more comfortable. We'll see if they help my times in Hawthorne.

I'm still on the same Crucial Springs and getting the same alignment.

Edit: Also, I recently learned that Tokico makes a non-adjustable (less expensive than the D-Specs) strut that's still considered to be designed for high performance springs. You might research what springs would be a good fit. In my experience there's only one setting on adjustable struts that works best for your springs and once you set it, you forget it. Perhaps there is a tried and true performance spring to match to those Tokico struts that fit perfectly. Worth a quick search anyway.

[Dean]

Koni makes great stuff, that generally works well. To do that, they have to make compromises in valving, piston/shaft diameter, fluid volume, etc...

Without knowledge of the spring specifications, vehicle weight, corner loading, etc. OK is about as good as they will ever be. That OK may far exceed the poor to OK stock configuration which often has comfort and safety as priorities over handling and performance.

If you have ridden in a car with a great suspension engineered and tuned to work together, you get to feel true performance and handling often with decent street performance.

Tein excels at building streetable and mixed street/track while RCE/KW leans more to track. Scott, Cory, Matt and myself are all good drivers, but part of what lets us be so fast in our own cars is the suspensions on them. Well engineered and setup suspensions.

You don't have to go to Scott and my Multi-thousand dollar track setups, but you can get some well engineered, good performance coils for just over $1000 or maybe under used which will likely outperform in many ways whatever you can cobble together yourself.

[WRX06TR]

An example of those would be?

And the only reason I was thinking the Tokico's and RCE springs was because TiC had a great opinion of them, I wouldn't dare try and throw some springs on struts and hope it worked...

[cody]

Check out the opinions of people in the motorsports/autocross forum on Nasioc. As much as I love TiC, they're a vendor and you have to take vendor product recommendations with a grain of salt because they are always subjective. That said, that does sound like a good combo to me. You're just not going to get the lifetime warranty from Tokico though.

[WRX06TR]

True...well the only other decent combo I can see, from Dean's advice, would be the KW Variant 1's...RCE doesn't have a price on them but I figure they are around $1300 from other places online...would these be a decent, I mean they are much less than the V3's and only offer ride height adjustability...

[MPREZIV]

Originally Posted by WRX06TR

True, but this contradicts Scott's first statement of "If you don't need to adjust them, you don't need coils..."

I think what Scott meant was not simply dampener adjustment, but ride height/spring pre-load/corner balance. You can't do this with strut/spring. And I agree, in every aspect, with Scott's first post, so I won't waste time with saying it again...

[WRX06TR]

Well, I suppose I will just wait until I can find a good deal on some used KW variant 3's or variant 1's. It irritates me that they don't come with camber plates new, I understand why but its just annoying. I would just get the Variant 1's new but from what I read using them with the stock rubber mounts is pointless...

[Dewey]

Originally Posted by WRX06TR

An example of those would be?

And the only reason I was thinking the Tokico's and RCE springs was because TiC had a great opinion of them, I wouldn't dare try and throw some springs on struts and hope it worked...

I purchased my Tein Flex's with only 8k miles on them for only 700 dollars shipped on NASIOC. Are you only interested in getting new ones? IMO buying used is a great way to save a couple of bucks...

[WRX06TR]

No new isn't a priority. I think I will just sit on the boards for a while and wait to find a deal, plus I don't have that much saved at the moment, just getting an idea on how much I need...

[Joeyy]

I ran STI springs on my wagon before switching over to the Tein Flex. It would be a waste of time comparing the two because the coilovers were just so much better. I ran the hell out of mine and they are still killing it over on Kevin's wagon. You should talk to Kevin and/or go for a spin with him. Note to self...who really needs suspension anyways.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by WRX06TR

Well, I suppose I will just wait until I can find a good deal on some used KW variant 3's or variant 1's. It irritates me that they don't come with camber plates new, I understand why but its just annoying. I would just get the Variant 1's new but from what I read using them with the stock rubber mounts is pointless...

If you're worried about clunking and noise, you don't want camber plates. Most of the noise from coilovers is because of the pillowball topmounts. Get some Group-N topmounts.

[AtomicLabMonkey]

I hate the marketing language everyone uses. Guys, your cars come with "coil-over" struts from the factory. That is what the standard MacPherson strut design consists of. "Coil-over" is a general term, simply meaning the spring is located co-axially with the strut/shock.

What everyone sells as a "coil-over" kit is just a strut/shock with a threaded body, and springs/perches/etc, so that ride-height is easily adjustable.

[cody]

If you grab donor struts from a wagon and do Konis, you could probably get 2 or more degrees of neg. camber with your stock camber bolts and tophats. Wagon struts add about .7* of neg. camber, I believe. Nick with the Saabaru has a set he'd probably sell you for cheap. He'll be in Hawthorne.

You're welcome to drive my car as well.

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by WRX06TR

Well, I suppose I will just wait until I can find a good deal on some used KW variant 3's or variant 1's. It irritates me that they don't come with camber plates new, I understand why but its just annoying. I would just get the Variant 1's new but from what I read using them with the stock rubber mounts is pointless...

Actually, with street-oriented coilovers it makes plenty of sense to use your stock tophats. Or maybe go with Group N tops sothat you don't have to assemble them yourself, as I hear they're a serious pain in the ass.

[cody]

Not sure it's been mentioned, so I'll throw it out there. Another benefit of coilovers is that you can run more neg. camber and wider tires due to the stiffer springs and the narrower strut/perch, as I understand it.

[k-dogg39]

Originally Posted by Joeyy

I ran STI springs on my wagon before switching over to the Tein Flex. It would be a waste of time comparing the two because the coilovers were just so much better. I ran the hell out of mine and they are still killing it over on Kevin's wagon.

I agree. I ran the exact same combo (since I bought the hand me downs ) and the difference between the two was pretty drastic.

Originally Posted by cody

Not sure it's been mentioned, so I'll throw it out there. Another benefit of coilovers is that you can run more neg. camber and wider tires due to the stiffer springs and the narrower strut/perch, as I understand it.

I think this is also the reason that I have 245's on the wagon now... Might have to test fit one on your wagon to see if they would clear perch area.

[Kevin M]

Once you change out from stock struts, guessing on rubbing is pretty dicy. But with the narrower strut bodies and spring perches, you can usually get more camber which is what enables us autocross/track types to get more tire under the car than average Joes. Spring stiffness doesn't matter- unless it's so ridiculously stiff that you can't hit the bumpstops on a severe bump with heavy loads in the car. And if not, you're too stiff or too high or you have really weird struts. Anyway, with enough camber, just about any Subaru can run 235/40s on 17x8 wheels with minimal fender work. Just peeling the lip guard thingy off is usually enough.

[cody]

Originally Posted by k-dogg39

I think this is also the reason that I have 245's on the wagon now... Might have to test fit one on your wagon to see if they would clear perch area.

We'll have to wait until after the fender rolling meet I'm thinking of having with Aaron's roller this Summer, but that would be awesome if I could test fit yours. Are they on 17X8's?