GT4 Challenge

[tysonK]

Originally Posted by sperry

Also, if they sold half as many games, but every game sold with a wheel, I bet they'd make more money... the wheels' are like $150+, and probably cost like $30 to manufacture, if that.

I'd guess we would have to weigh the R&D for the two. The manufacturing costs must be higher for the wheel than the dvd the game is written on.

Maybe the best marketing would have been buy this wheel and get the game for free? It might cheapen the image of the game to throw it is as a free gift.

[cody]

Originally Posted by tysonK

I see no way of comparing a video game dynamic to specific auto industry sales.

I don't think the option to buy a wheel in game correlates with the process of spending $6,000 more in a car purchase.

I was thinking of the fact that you can buy the game by itself and use the standard equipment or you can fork out extra to get the game with a wheel. If the addition of the wheel gave consumers a slight time advantage over those who only bought the game by itself, I don't think that would hurt GT4 sales...just like I don't think the availability of the faster/more expensive Impreza (STI) hurts overall Impreza sales...I know it's not a perfect analogy.

[doubleurx]

I think we should all leave the cars alone or all agree on an exact same setup. Just changing the tires to RSS from RH gains an easy 1.5 seconds for me.

I didn't check the sector times. I'll take a pic this weekend. For it to be a fair challange let's leave it at the stock car you get in arcarde mode with RSS tires.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by tysonK

I'd guess we would have to weigh the R&D for the two. The manufacturing costs must be higher for the wheel than the dvd the game is written on.

Maybe the best marketing would have been buy this wheel and get the game for free? It might cheapen the image of the game to throw it is as a free gift.

Well, like I said, if the wheel costs (let's bump it up from my 1st guess to make the math easier) $50 to manufacture, package, and sell at $150, they make $100 per wheel. The game sells for $50, and probably costs $5 to manufacture, package, and sell (not counting the original programming costs which were in the millions).

Now let's assume they sold 2 million copies of the game, plus say 10% of the people that bought the game also bought the wheel, that's $90M + $20M = $110M.

Now let's say they bundle the game and wheel for $200, but only sell have as many games because of the high cost. That's $45M + $100M = $145M.

But that's really not the point. My point is that the game should be beat-able with either controller. But from a marketing perspective, if the car is faster with a wheel, you can sell more wheels because anyone that's going to run in a GT4 league will have to buy one to be competative. However, the GT4 programmers put a lot of code in there to assist the the dualshock. My guess is they were being philanthropic and trying to make sure no one has an advantage for the online play (which later got canned from GT4). The result is that a great driver w/ a dualshock runs faster lap times than a great driver with a wheel.

Of course, that all depends on the results of Nick's next attempt with his wheel. If he's able to match his dualshock times, then I'll agree that all of the above is bunk. However, I think I'm pretty damn good w/ a wheel on GT4 (I totally suck w/ a controller), and I don't think there's another 2 seconds per lap in this challenge to pick up. Sure there's a tenth here or there, maybe a total of 1 second, but not 2 seconds. So either Nick's just fucking superman at GT4 (which certainly is a possiblity and why I'd love to see an in-car video of his lap) or there's an inherrant advantage that comes from the dualshock assist.

So Nick, for posterity, we need you to match those 1'25's with the wheel! And record your laps man, setup your digi-cam on video mode and record a reply of your best lap to show us how you did it!

[sperry]

Originally Posted by doubleurx

I think we should all leave the cars alone or all agree on an exact same setup. Just changing the tires to RSS from RH gains an easy 1.5 seconds for me.

I didn't check the sector times. I'll take a pic this weekend. For it to be a fair challange let's leave it at the stock car you get in arcarde mode with RSS tires.

The problem with "leave it alone" is that we can't police it. Arcade mode is already *very* limited on the setup changes... if everyone adds max HP and reduces to min weight (which I'm sure everyone will do) then we will be exactly the same, unless someone want's a slightly different gear ratio, or harder tires for some reason.

Frankly, I'd much rather run "open" events in simulation mode where we have access to all the settings changes, but then it stops being a "single car challenge" and becomes a whole lot more like real racing where setup, tires, and machine condition are important. If we really want to run driver-vs-driver challenges, we have to stick to arcade mode... and if that's the case, we might as well allow people to do anything arcade mode allows, since we'll all be doing the same stuff: +20% hp, -10% weight, RSS/RSS tires, and gearing to match the track. To me that's the most policeable and fair... the only difference is that people will be running a bit faster than the defaults.

[doubleurx]

Well alrighty then, let's max these things out. I used to be faster with the wheel, but I haven't used it in a while. Since Saturday looks to be one of those stuck in the house days, Bayley and I will spend a couple hours on the Laguna track.

Since we are modifying the car so much, why not just do these in sim mode since we have access to so many more settings and tracks configurations?

[doubleurx]

Does anyone know of any track where RSS tires don't give you a better time if you are not using the tire damage mode?

[bemani]

Sperry, you forgot that DFP is manufactured by Logitech, so Sony might only see a small licensing fee for from them for every sale of the DFP.

The DS2 vs DFP issue has been beaten to death on other forums like gtplanet.net, its just a personal preference, I don't believe in one being better than the other. People post fast times w/ DS2, then someone beat it with DFP, and vice versa.

Anyway, I agree w/ douleurx, just leave the arcade car alone, I mean, do you really need to police it, I think the whole photo thing is kind of excessive already. If someone wants to cheat, go ahead, there's no prize or anything.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by bemani

Sperry, you forgot that DFP is manufactured by Logitech, so Sony might only see a small licensing fee for from them for every sale of the DFP.

The DS2 vs DFP issue has been beaten to death on other forums like gtplanet.net, its just a personal preference, I don't believe in one being better than the other. People post fast times w/ DS2, then someone beat it with DFP, and vice versa.

Anyway, I agree w/ douleurx, just leave the arcade car alone, I mean, do you really need to police it, I think the whole photo thing is kind of excessive already. If someone wants to cheat, go ahead, there's no prize or anything.

Good point. I've never really tried comparing the wheel to the controller since I plain old hate driving w/ a controller. I'm not on the GT forums, but I imagine this debate has been covered ad infinitum.

As far as the settings, there's only 4 of 'em, and they're not really "tuning" the car, they're just for handicapping the cars for network racing. I figure why not take the settings out of the equation... sure this is already all on the honor system, but why not just allow the changes so there's no doubt? Besides, a faster car is more fun to drive anyway.

And finally, Nick, you mean Sears Point, not Laguna right? If you're running laps at Seca, that might explain how you're 2 seconds faster than everyone else.

[zpeed]

Let post 2 times, one for default w/ ss tires and another with all setting allowed. I'm sure the fast guy will always fast does not matter what car he drive.

[Double Phister]

Originally Posted by sperry

...Frankly, I'd much rather run "open" events in simulation mode where we have access to all the settings changes, but then it stops being a "single car challenge" and becomes a whole lot more like real racing where setup, tires, and machine condition are important. If we really want to run driver-vs-driver challenges, we have to stick to arcade mode...

I'm for both. Lets have an semi-open race with some loose constraints like subaru only or a cap on dollar amount. Drive it however the game lets you (shortcuts and swinging from vines over the crockodiles is OK).
Then lets also have a totally locked down driver competition. (eg... license events)

[sperry]

Originally Posted by zpeed

Let post 2 times, one for default w/ ss tires and another with all setting allowed. I'm sure the fast guy will always fast does not matter what car he drive.

I'd rather not take the time to run the track two ways... when you change the power and the gearing, it's not just a matter of driving it twice, my shift points and braking zones all move around.

I think we make it as simple as possible: arcade mode, a track, a car, and anything goes (just remember cutting and wall riding is for pussies ).

[cody]

Jeez, do you guys overcomplicate everything this way?

[cody]

I added a rule to the "Current Challenge" (in bold). Are we all in agreement?

*Everyone nods*

Okay good.

Originally Posted by cody

Welcome to the SECCS GT4 challenge. Post up a pic of your best lap time for the current challenge. If your time is the best for 7 days straight, you get to make the rules for the next challenge. I'll keep this post updated with winners and new challenges if we ever get that far.

Current Challenge

Track: Infineon Raceway
Car: Cusco Impreza
-No shortcuts (keep 2 wheels on track at all times except when jumping)
-Arcade Mode
-All available settings may be manipulated including weight, HP, and gearing

Happy Motoring!

[sperry]

Originally Posted by sperry

And finally, Nick, you mean Sears Point, not Laguna right? If you're running laps at Seca, that might explain how you're 2 seconds faster than everyone else.

I'm still waiting to find out that doubleurx was driving Seca instead of Sears Point so I know that I've got a prayer of matching his times.

[tysonK]

Originally Posted by cody

Jeez, do you guys overcomplicate everything this way?

It sure breaks up a boring day.

Originally Posted by sperry

Well, like I said, if the wheel costs (let's bump it up from my 1st guess to make the math easier) $50 to manufacture, package, and sell at $150, they make $100 per wheel. The game sells for $50, and probably costs $5 to manufacture, package, and sell (not counting the original programming costs which were in the millions).

I would think the marginal profit on the wheels is much less than $100, that seems high. Of course I have no evidence of that, but this is cool.

http://ir.logitech.com/financialhist...agesect=Prod05

So if we could break down the results in this statement to reflect only the GT4 driving wheel by quarter that would be sweet. Im sure we could find GT4 sales for those quarters. A nice overlay graph with a regression, and we would have a very crude and terrible data analysis..

If I was still in school I would almost care.

[tysonK]

I should just go run some laps it would be much more fun.

[cody]

I wish you would.

[doubleurx]

Yes I meant Infineon.............NOT

Man I am getting old and here I thought I had you guys by 2 seconds!

Too f'n funny!

[sperry]

Originally Posted by doubleurx

Yes I meant Infineon.............NOT

Man I am getting old and here I thought I had you guys by 2 seconds!

Too f'n funny!

Wait... you were running Seca?!!! Oh my god, that's *killing* me!!

At least my faith in the Logitech wheel has been restored.

[MattR]

He was running Sears/ Infineon? Nick you are my new favorite person, that is the funniest thing I've read today!

[cody]

Originally Posted by MattR

He was running Sears/ Infineon? Nick you are my new favorite person, that is the funniest thing I've read today!

He was running Seca, not Sears like he shoulda.

[MattR]

Oh, I'm confused, but not entirely confused..Now I see. Keep on Keepin on.

[sperry]

Okay, here's my best lap for tonight with the new rules.

FYI, I'm running max power and min weight of course, and -2 steps on the gearing so I top out 6th. It changes the shift points from the default, so it took a little getting used to.

So, I'm at 1'23.396 but I'm pretty sure I can get into the 1'22's if I could just drive a lap without at least one "big" mistake. Hell, one lap I was up .5s from this time but blew it in the last 2 corners...

[doubleurx]

My Brain!

I went home that night for some reason thinking it was Seca. It did surpirse me that in less than an hour I could get 2 seconds on you guys. I only got a couple runs on Infineon which I rarely play on, but was able to get a 127.8XX with the stock car.

I can see it at the next track day. Me standing at RFR listening to a bunch of crickets. Meanwhile you guys standing in the Thunderhill paddock - "wasn't Nick supposed to be here today".