GRS:GT motor build .. what should i do? - Subaru Enthusiasts Car Club of the Sierras

A1337STI · 2010-10-11, 09:56 AM

After winning the P-stock championship this year I'm switching rally classes for next year:

I'm allowed to Update/Backdate Any part in my entire car, as long as its from a 93-01 impreza (US Market) that includes the Engine!

and beyond that i'm allowed to modify the engine in the following ways.

Engine
1. Internal parts are free with the exception that the stock block must be retained in the stock location.
2. The stock induction system meaning the intake manifold, carburetor, or fuel injection system and exhaust manifold must be retained. However the stock intake and exhaust manifolds may be modified.
3. The rest of the exhaust system is free, but must include a suitable muffler.
4. The air filter and housing is free.
5. The ignition system must be of stock design with the following exception. Breaker points may be replaced by an electronic trigger that remains in the distributor and does not include an MSD style ignition system.
6. Motor mounts are unrestricted as long as they remain in the stock location.
7. Engine oil coolers, transmission coolers, and radiators may be added or upgraded.
8. Fuel pumps and pressure regulators are unrestricted.

Note I'm required to use the stock ECU on Stock tuning!!!

So i think the Big Idea is to go with a 2.5 , and start from there..
BUT I've found a 2.2l impreza short block with SVX pistons , fully balanced , it has 12:1 compression, some sorta aftermarket rod bearings, ? crankshaft ?? for only $100 ....

I would rather start with a 2.5 L BUT i can't ignore this insanely awesome value... that stated. what should i do from there?

I Know Kevin has a complete 2.2 L motor + harness + ecu from a 2001 .. So I'm thinking get some head work done (port matching + polishing) then get it flow tested and get a Cam to match (go well with) the flow rate of the heads. Is this a good route? am i missing out on something way better? Should i go with 2.5L heads ? DOHC ? SOHC? could a 2.2 01 ECU run a motor build with 2.5 heads?

every internal part is free ( But i don't have an unlimited budget) I'de love to try and keep my motor cost down below 1500 (though i could go higher if something is going to offer a really good HP gain for the $$$ spent)

Ideas? thoughts? any general rules of thumb?

Supposedly the guy selling me the short block has built up a 2.5 to about 250 hp on the stock ecu & tuning. higher compression, port polish and matching, some ??? he's using a higher voltage distributor block thingy (one out of a neon)

anywho .. I'm definitely beyond my know how here so let me know.. I really really want to make 220 HP (think that's doable) crank obviously ..

A1337STI · 2010-10-11, 10:05 AM

oops crap thought i posted this into technical, not Classified.

... doh i was too hasty in my posting..

Kevin M · 2010-10-11, 10:12 AM

A bone stock EJ25 is better than a high compression EJ22. What I would do is throw some Delta cams in the engine, rebuild it to the specs in the service manual, and get a Crawford reflash. That, or try the PP6 with tuning support from Rallitek. The rest of the allowances are pretty obvious as far as what you should do with them.

van · 2010-10-11, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin M

and get a Crawford reflash. That, or try the PP6 with tuning support from Rallitek.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A1337STI

Note I'm required to use the stock ECU on Stock tuning!!!

Kevin M · 2010-10-11, 11:36 AM

Whoops, I thought he just had to retain the stock ECU.

No tuning means serious modding of the motor is a waste at best and detrimental at worst. Just slap some cams in it and cal it good. Porting the crap out of stock headers is probably a good idea too, since the OEM design sucks balls.

A1337STI · 2010-10-11, 01:07 PM

Hey Kevin will a 2001 2.2l ECU and wiring harness work with a 2.5L motor? Unless i find a bitching deal on a 2.5 i may have to wait on that upgrade...

just checking at the dismantler they charge $400-500 for a 1.8 imp motor, but 1200-1500 for a 2.5

I could afford to maybe spend 3-4K on the motor before the 2011 season starts but only if i spend zero on differentials , gearing , and brakes.

My current plan being an obx torsen for front ($370) 12kg or 20kg center diff ($800 ish) KAZZ 1.5 way rear ($900 ish ) so about $2100 on the diffs. I was going to pick up a 94-95 L 5th gear (.825) someone showed me a url to buy one for $120 ... need to find that again ..

leaving me about 1-2K for the motor and brakes ..

Brakes will be RS 2.5 front and rear, hopefully a high quality "oem vented rotor) and porter-field R4 pads

On paper 165 TQ @ 4,000 rpms Versus 149 TQ @ 3,600 is only a 10% difference. But you've driven the same car as a 2.2 and a 2.5 (same gearing too i think?) was it just lots of real world difference?

I have a lot of time so i can just spend the next month or so trying to find a 2.5 long block at a good price (or short block if making a 2.2 heads + ecu hybrid makes sense)

damn crappy budgets... hehehe

A1337STI · 2010-10-11, 01:28 PM

Oh i've found maybe some really really used 2.5s (needing a rebuild) for around $150-250 ... might be a viable option depending on how much a stock style rebuild is gonna cost me at AIMS er where ever... hmm...

Kevin M · 2010-10-11, 03:15 PM

The dismantlers are on drugs on 2.5 pricing. Buy one that needs a rebuild, since you wouldn't use a yard motor without rebuilding it anyway. The OEM rebuild gasket kit is ~$200, ACL Race bearings are ~$120, and the machining at AIMS for an OE-type rebuild is about $200, plus any necessary headwork- and there shouldn't be any required unless the car way, way overheated and blew HGs. Add in new Delta cams and maybe a good valve job and you should have a fresh, cammed EJ251 for under $1000 or so. We can also give you a decent deal on engine assembly if you'd prefer not to tackle it yourself. With the restrictions on tuning and exhaust manifolds, any modding past mild cams will have basically no benefit and will adversely affect reliability.

A1337STI · 2010-10-11, 03:34 PM

Oh.. that's very reasonable ..

Guess i'll be looking to go that route.

how much should i offer peeps with EJ251s that need a rebuild?

Kevin M · 2010-10-11, 04:17 PM

I got an EJ251 with a spun bearing for $150 shipped from DS1 last year. You can find good deals like that here and there, just keep your eyes peeled.

A1337STI · 2010-10-14, 03:52 PM

$300 for a EJ251 with some kinda throttle problem (runs poorly under throttle, idles fine)
fully dressed long blong, intake + exhaust, ECU + wiring harness.

so given my limitations do i just port and polish the heads, get them flow tested and match a cam to that flow rate and call it a day?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin M

With the restrictions on tuning and exhaust manifolds, any modding past mild cams will have basically no benefit and will adversely affect reliability.

Yep that was their reasoning behind their rules, to hopefully limit the benefit from expensive motor mods..

and ya i'll probably want you guys to do the motor re-assembly .

would there be any benefit at all if i got pistons to up my compression ratio? or mostly just a waste of $$$ ?

Kevin M · 2010-10-14, 05:19 PM

It is possible that it could help. I'll talk to some of the NA gurus and see what they think. I suppose at the very least you can remove some rotating mass, which helps, even if the bump in CR doesn't really do much for actual power output.

And $300 for all that stuff is a great deal. I'd jump on it if I were in your position.

A1337STI · 2010-12-27, 05:23 PM

Motor is in shipping right now. Ended up costing me $475 Shipped. comes with intake and exhaust manifold, fly wheel, starter, alternator, ps pump .... and maybe an AC pump .. :\

I think the header is a borla or something i can't use, so probably will be looking to sell or trade that for a stock header 98 rs style

I might install AC into rally betsy for Gorman ... ~~ 120-130F in car temp for 8 hours .. I think staying cool on transits and waiting to race will be well worth the extra 20 or so pounds the car will weight. a cool suite with water and cooler probably weights that much anywho ...

Dean · 2010-12-27, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A1337STI

I might install AC into rally betsy for Gorman ... ~~ 120-130F in car temp for 8 hours .. I think staying cool on transits and waiting to race will be well worth the extra 20 or so pounds the car will weight. a cool suite with water and cooler probably weights that much anywho ...

Heck, run it any time you are not at WOT or near it. Should be a simple relay mod.

Kevin M · 2010-12-27, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dean

Heck, run it any time you are not at WOT or near it. Should be a simple relay mod.

Especially since OBD-equipped cars already shut the AC off at high load/high throttle.

Dean · 2010-12-27, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin M

Especially since OBD-equipped cars already shut the AC off at high load/high throttle.

Yes, but I don't think Betsy has OBDanything except On-Board Deity look alike maybe.

Kevin M · 2010-12-27, 11:12 PM

It's OBD-1.

A1337STI · 2010-12-28, 10:09 AM

While Betsy is currently ODB-1, I plan to switch over to the correct era ECU for my 98 SOHC Motor. so i should be ODB-2 once all said and done.

Guess i'll have to try it out, do a little testing, see if it actually affects my stage times at all...

Oh i need a ECU Harness apparently guess i'll know exactly what i need in about a week when my motor shows up.

may have to see if anyone needs any of my junk/spares collection. might have a flywheel or something up for grabs (not sure yet) hehe

2010-10-11, 09:56 AM	#1
A1337STI EJ205 Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 1,840 Car: Impreza and an Impreza Class: AS / CRS PerfStock "pedal on the right"	GRS:GT motor build .. what should i do? After winning the P-stock championship this year I'm switching rally classes for next year: I'm allowed to Update/Backdate Any part in my entire car, as long as its from a 93-01 impreza (US Market) that includes the Engine! and beyond that i'm allowed to modify the engine in the following ways. Engine 1. Internal parts are free with the exception that the stock block must be retained in the stock location. 2. The stock induction system meaning the intake manifold, carburetor, or fuel injection system and exhaust manifold must be retained. However the stock intake and exhaust manifolds may be modified. 3. The rest of the exhaust system is free, but must include a suitable muffler. 4. The air filter and housing is free. 5. The ignition system must be of stock design with the following exception. Breaker points may be replaced by an electronic trigger that remains in the distributor and does not include an MSD style ignition system. 6. Motor mounts are unrestricted as long as they remain in the stock location. 7. Engine oil coolers, transmission coolers, and radiators may be added or upgraded. 8. Fuel pumps and pressure regulators are unrestricted. Note I'm required to use the stock ECU on Stock tuning!!! So i think the Big Idea is to go with a 2.5 , and start from there.. BUT I've found a 2.2l impreza short block with SVX pistons , fully balanced , it has 12:1 compression, some sorta aftermarket rod bearings, ? crankshaft ?? for only $100 .... I would rather start with a 2.5 L BUT i can't ignore this insanely awesome value... that stated. what should i do from there? I Know Kevin has a complete 2.2 L motor + harness + ecu from a 2001 .. So I'm thinking get some head work done (port matching + polishing) then get it flow tested and get a Cam to match (go well with) the flow rate of the heads. Is this a good route? am i missing out on something way better? Should i go with 2.5L heads ? DOHC ? SOHC? could a 2.2 01 ECU run a motor build with 2.5 heads? every internal part is free ( But i don't have an unlimited budget) I'de love to try and keep my motor cost down below 1500 (though i could go higher if something is going to offer a really good HP gain for the $$$ spent) Ideas? thoughts? any general rules of thumb? Supposedly the guy selling me the short block has built up a 2.5 to about 250 hp on the stock ecu & tuning. higher compression, port polish and matching, some ??? he's using a higher voltage distributor block thingy (one out of a neon) anywho .. I'm definitely beyond my know how here so let me know.. I really really want to make 220 HP (think that's doable) crank obviously .. __________________ Fighting uphill battles, one bullet at a time! Last edited by A1337STI; 2010-10-11 at 10:05 AM.

2010-10-11, 10:05 AM	#2
A1337STI EJ205 Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 1,840 Car: Impreza and an Impreza Class: AS / CRS PerfStock "pedal on the right"	oops crap thought i posted this into technical, not Classified. ... doh i was too hasty in my posting.. __________________ Fighting uphill battles, one bullet at a time!

2010-10-11, 10:12 AM	#3
Kevin M EJ22T Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Reno Posts: 9,445 Car: '93/'01 GF6, mostly red Class: 19 FP	A bone stock EJ25 is better than a high compression EJ22. What I would do is throw some Delta cams in the engine, rebuild it to the specs in the service manual, and get a Crawford reflash. That, or try the PP6 with tuning support from Rallitek. The rest of the allowances are pretty obvious as far as what you should do with them. __________________ FWD is the new AWD

2010-10-11, 11:36 AM	#5
Kevin M EJ22T Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Reno Posts: 9,445 Car: '93/'01 GF6, mostly red Class: 19 FP	Whoops, I thought he just had to retain the stock ECU. No tuning means serious modding of the motor is a waste at best and detrimental at worst. Just slap some cams in it and cal it good. Porting the crap out of stock headers is probably a good idea too, since the OEM design sucks balls. __________________ FWD is the new AWD

2010-10-11, 01:07 PM	#6
A1337STI EJ205 Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 1,840 Car: Impreza and an Impreza Class: AS / CRS PerfStock "pedal on the right"	Hey Kevin will a 2001 2.2l ECU and wiring harness work with a 2.5L motor? Unless i find a bitching deal on a 2.5 i may have to wait on that upgrade... just checking at the dismantler they charge $400-500 for a 1.8 imp motor, but 1200-1500 for a 2.5 I could afford to maybe spend 3-4K on the motor before the 2011 season starts but only if i spend zero on differentials , gearing , and brakes. My current plan being an obx torsen for front ($370) 12kg or 20kg center diff ($800 ish) KAZZ 1.5 way rear ($900 ish ) so about $2100 on the diffs. I was going to pick up a 94-95 L 5th gear (.825) someone showed me a url to buy one for $120 ... need to find that again .. leaving me about 1-2K for the motor and brakes .. Brakes will be RS 2.5 front and rear, hopefully a high quality "oem vented rotor) and porter-field R4 pads On paper 165 TQ @ 4,000 rpms Versus 149 TQ @ 3,600 is only a 10% difference. But you've driven the same car as a 2.2 and a 2.5 (same gearing too i think?) was it just lots of real world difference? I have a lot of time so i can just spend the next month or so trying to find a 2.5 long block at a good price (or short block if making a 2.2 heads + ecu hybrid makes sense) damn crappy budgets... hehehe __________________ Fighting uphill battles, one bullet at a time!

2010-10-11, 01:28 PM	#7
A1337STI EJ205 Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 1,840 Car: Impreza and an Impreza Class: AS / CRS PerfStock "pedal on the right"	Oh i've found maybe some really really used 2.5s (needing a rebuild) for around $150-250 ... might be a viable option depending on how much a stock style rebuild is gonna cost me at AIMS er where ever... hmm... __________________ Fighting uphill battles, one bullet at a time!

2010-10-11, 03:15 PM	#8
Kevin M EJ22T Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Reno Posts: 9,445 Car: '93/'01 GF6, mostly red Class: 19 FP	The dismantlers are on drugs on 2.5 pricing. Buy one that needs a rebuild, since you wouldn't use a yard motor without rebuilding it anyway. The OEM rebuild gasket kit is ~$200, ACL Race bearings are ~$120, and the machining at AIMS for an OE-type rebuild is about $200, plus any necessary headwork- and there shouldn't be any required unless the car way, way overheated and blew HGs. Add in new Delta cams and maybe a good valve job and you should have a fresh, cammed EJ251 for under $1000 or so. We can also give you a decent deal on engine assembly if you'd prefer not to tackle it yourself. With the restrictions on tuning and exhaust manifolds, any modding past mild cams will have basically no benefit and will adversely affect reliability. __________________ FWD is the new AWD

2010-10-11, 03:34 PM	#9
A1337STI EJ205 Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 1,840 Car: Impreza and an Impreza Class: AS / CRS PerfStock "pedal on the right"	Oh.. that's very reasonable .. Guess i'll be looking to go that route. how much should i offer peeps with EJ251s that need a rebuild? __________________ Fighting uphill battles, one bullet at a time!

2010-10-11, 04:17 PM	#10
Kevin M EJ22T Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Reno Posts: 9,445 Car: '93/'01 GF6, mostly red Class: 19 FP	I got an EJ251 with a spun bearing for $150 shipped from DS1 last year. You can find good deals like that here and there, just keep your eyes peeled. __________________ FWD is the new AWD

2010-10-14, 05:19 PM	#12
Kevin M EJ22T Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Reno Posts: 9,445 Car: '93/'01 GF6, mostly red Class: 19 FP	It is possible that it could help. I'll talk to some of the NA gurus and see what they think. I suppose at the very least you can remove some rotating mass, which helps, even if the bump in CR doesn't really do much for actual power output. And $300 for all that stuff is a great deal. I'd jump on it if I were in your position. __________________ FWD is the new AWD

2010-12-27, 05:23 PM	#13
A1337STI EJ205 Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 1,840 Car: Impreza and an Impreza Class: AS / CRS PerfStock "pedal on the right"	Motor is in shipping right now. Ended up costing me $475 Shipped. comes with intake and exhaust manifold, fly wheel, starter, alternator, ps pump .... and maybe an AC pump .. :\ I think the header is a borla or something i can't use, so probably will be looking to sell or trade that for a stock header 98 rs style I might install AC into rally betsy for Gorman ... ~~ 120-130F in car temp for 8 hours .. I think staying cool on transits and waiting to race will be well worth the extra 20 or so pounds the car will weight. a cool suite with water and cooler probably weights that much anywho ... __________________ Fighting uphill battles, one bullet at a time!

2010-12-27, 11:12 PM	#17
Kevin M EJ22T Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Reno Posts: 9,445 Car: '93/'01 GF6, mostly red Class: 19 FP	It's OBD-1. __________________ FWD is the new AWD

2010-12-28, 10:09 AM	#18
A1337STI EJ205 Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 1,840 Car: Impreza and an Impreza Class: AS / CRS PerfStock "pedal on the right"	While Betsy is currently ODB-1, I plan to switch over to the correct era ECU for my 98 SOHC Motor. so i should be ODB-2 once all said and done. Guess i'll have to try it out, do a little testing, see if it actually affects my stage times at all... Oh i need a ECU Harness apparently guess i'll know exactly what i need in about a week when my motor shows up. may have to see if anyone needs any of my junk/spares collection. might have a flywheel or something up for grabs (not sure yet) hehe __________________ Fighting uphill battles, one bullet at a time!