Coolant additive tests

[cody]

Cooling System FAQ

[AtomicLabMonkey]

The best solution for cooling problems is to either get a bigger heat exchanger, a more efficient one, or make more fluid flow through it (air and/or coolant). Don't be tempted to start upping the ratio of water to coolant above 50/50 (unless required by track rules), you'll probably run into corrosion problems.

[sperry]

Bump!

Since I'm back to running the WRX at the track, and since I'm still having problems keeping water temps under control, I figured I'd bump the existing water wetter thread, even though it's from the less friendly era of SECCS tech threads.

Here's something I came across: http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforum...-heads-up.html

Greg Theisz
Southeast Regional Manager
Cell 713-253-3422 Fax 210-568-2940
gtheisz@royalpurple.com

We recently had a consumer provide us with a coolant sample that he thought had been contaminated with motor oil from a blown head gasket. We performed an analysis, and found it wasn't motor oil. It was polysiloxane polymer (i.e. silicone) from Red Line Water Wetter. He had been using this product for several years, adding a couple bottles per year.

Seeing this prompted us to look into the issue further in the controlled environment of our coolant test lab.

We setup our ASTM D2570 Simulated Service coolant test rig, and ran Water Wetter through repeated heat/cool cycles. We found that after 8-10 cycles, the polysiloxane polymer become completely insoluble. After another 5-6 cycles, it turned brown, and began coating the inside of the radiator. After another 15-20 cycles, it turned darker brown, and in the high heat area of the system became thicker in consistency -- almost like molasses.

As mentioned in a previous report on this topic, Red Line uses polysiloxane polymer as an antifoam ingredient in their Water Wetter formula. This is "old technology," as there are now far more sophisticated antifoam ingredients available for coolant. The problem with polysiloxane is that it is only marginally soluble in water, and polymerizes through repeated heating/cooling cycles.

Have a look at the attached photos. Two of them are glass beakers containing the Water Wetter/water solution drained from our ASTM test rig at the conclusion of the test. The other one is the coolant reservoir of the consumer who needlessly rebuilt his engine after using Water Wetter.

As you can see, this material looks a lot like motor oil. It coats everything it comes into contact with. It would take a lot of flushing to completely remove this from a cooling system. It's pretty nasty stuff. I can tell you, it took plenty of work to get it out of our ASTM test rig!

I have heard through the grapevine that the chemist who originally developed Water Wetter is no longer at Red Line, and none of their existing technical staff has any background in the area of coolants. For this reason, they are probably unable to update their formula to any newer types of technology. And of course, they are not members of ASTM, so they may not have any access to research or updated test methodology.

I share this info with you for two reasons:

1) Some uninformed consumers may errantly assume this material is motor oil in their coolant from a blown heat gasket, causing them to perform a costly motor teardown that is completely unnecessary.

2) There may be consumers who use Red Line Water Wetter before using Purple Ice. We certainly don't want them to think that Ice caused this. For this reason, I think our research on this subject may prove helpful at some point.

We have full documentation to back all of this up. And of course the web is filled with similar reports. If you Google the words "Water Wetter Brown" you find scores of them. Feel free to use this info however you may see fit.

Granted, it's from some dude at Royal Purple, there may be a good reason to pick one of the alternatives to RedLine's Water Wetter product if this polymerization accusation is true. I heard a similar story from Greg Benson at BBR regarding not using Water Wetter and choosing the Royal Purple Ice instead.

So, in addition to an extraction vent on my hood and override switches for both my radiator fans, I'm going to run 80/20 water/coolant ratio plus the Purple Ice stuff in my car at the next track day and see if I can get my temps under control.

I think my biggest issue is that there's simply too much crap in front of my radiator hurting cooling efficiency. Sure, I've got a large Koyo radiator, but there's also a big intercooler and a giant oil cooler in front of it. So when I've got the best airflow (going down a long straight) I'm also heating the intercooler the most (high boost).

The good news is that, as opposed to years past, when I run a cool down lap the car actually cools down, and while my water temps are insane (pushing 230-240F... it's hard to tell since it's off the gauge ), my oil temps are stable around 245F even when the water is too hot. So, I think I'm close to being able to get more than one hot lap out of the car at a time. Then again, it was in the 80's at the last track day... if it's 100F out at the event at the end of the month, nothing may work.. not even a V-mount radiator/intercooler.

[Kevin M]

I usually down a large grain of salt with any technical information provided by someone who sells the product in question, but his comments are both very public and somewhat inflammatory- which suggests he is saying nothing that is not 100% factual... or at least that he believes he is. Either way, that's a good reason to switch from Redline. That, and I'm edging toward not really offering much of their stuff other than gear oils, because their pricing is starting to exceed the market.

[ScottyS]

Run the fans at 48v, who knows you might get some boost out of it.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by ScottyS

Run the fans at 48v, who knows you might get some boost out of it.

You're going to have to elaborate. How does one go about converting a 12V car system to run fans at 48V, aside from a DC-DC converter and new 48V fans?

Or are you making a PC overclocking joke that went over my head?

For the record... my fan override switches are simple ground switches on the two ECU pins that the ECU switches to ground to turn on the main fan relays. I'm hoping there aren't any weird side effects from manually grounding those pins. When I tested it, everything seemed to work fine.

[Dean]

Did you confirm you have a 160 degree thermostat.

If not, get one! Water temp on the idiot gauge should be at the lower line with a 160.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Dean

Did you confirm you have a 160 degree thermostat.

If not, get one! Water temp on the idiot gauge should be at the lower line with a 160.

It's impossible to tell what my thermostat is... normal running temp of my car is like 195.

I'm not so sure a lower temp thermostat really makes a difference. If my car is running above 195, the thermostat is 100% open regardless of what temp it's attempting to regulate to. The only benefit is that the stat opens a little earlier, so potentially that would delay overheating, but if the thermal capacity of the cooling system is below the amount of heat generated, the thermostat can't do anything in the long run.

Regardless, I did order a 160F stat, but simply because they're fail-open and (hopefully) better flowing than whatever's in my car currently. I'm not expecting a miracle though. If anything the higher pressure cap I've got makes a bigger difference because so far I'm not boiling over into the reservoir even at ~240F. Once the cap opens and the boiling point of the system drops to 212, my session is over.

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Just a thought, have you verified that the water temp readings you're getting are accurate, with a different gauge?

If those temps are right it sounds like a recipe for another blown engine before long. Do you have a good air path from the nose through the radiator? Top & sides around it sealed off to promote more airflow through it? Can you relocate the oil cooler somewhere else?

[sperry]

Originally Posted by AtomicLabMonkey

Just a thought, have you verified that the water temp readings you're getting are accurate, with a different gauge?

If those temps are right it sounds like a recipe for another blown engine before long. Do you have a good air path from the nose through the radiator? Top & sides around it sealed off to promote more airflow through it? Can you relocate the oil cooler somewhere else?

Well, the water temp gauge is relatively new, and it's not an el-cheapo gauge, and it matches the temps read by the ECU (or at least the fans kick on at 205 on the gauge which is what temp I think the ECU turns them on at). I drilled and tapped the water cross-over pipe on the block, which is where the stock gauge sender also is and I believe should be one of the hottest places to read from. I've got the factory undertray... but Kevin actually mentioned that he had one of the newer generation undertrays he could loan me to see if the longer tray creates more negative pressure under the car. So that might help a little.

I spent a lot of time trying to address radiator airflow. I blocked off the hood scoop so it wouldn't pressurize the engine bay (though that's now replaced with a hood that's got an extractor right over the radiator). I've got an aftermarket shroud on the top of the radiator, and I made my own side shrouds that prevent air leaking around the radiator since the A/C condenser was removed. The bumper seals to the FMIC, so there's not a lot room for improvement, aside from a splitter or an actual air box extending from the bumper to really collect the air.

The oil cooler is kinda too large to go anywhere but in front. I could possibly relocate it to the LF fender with some great effort, but getting proper airflow to and from it would be a challenge. Though, that may be the last thing I can try that won't cost me $4000 to buy a V-mount setup. I'm really trying not to spend any significant money on the WRX since I'm probably going to part it out and put my effort into tracking the Miata instead.

[AtomicLabMonkey]

You might need to do an actual sealed air box from opening to radiator if nothing else is working. Splitter would be my next thought, which has an obvious downforce bonus for handling and they're fairly easy to make. Increasing airflow through the rad is all about pressure differential, need to increase P in front of it and lower P behind it. Either one or both of those options costs way less than $4k to fabricate.

If the coolant temp sensor the ECU uses lines up with your gauge then that's good enough correlation, readings should be accurate.

[sperry]

Here's the approximate layout of the radiator (blue), oil cooler (orange), and intercooler (red). The black lines are the body/bumper/shrouds in the top-down view. I super-imposed the boxes on a picture of the car so you can get a feeling for how the air is entering the cores (I don't run at the track with the lights installed, but the supertones are on there still).



If I were to build an air box, it would basically mean cutting the bumper and front grill out and extending it out and away from the body. Much like GST did on an earlier version of their Time Attack car:



That's not something I'm really keen to do. A splitter would be nice, but as it is, the car needs more rear downforce in the high-speed stuff... a splitter would mean I'd need an actual functional wing on the back of the car to keep it pointing the right direction in the RFR esses, which is like $1000 for something decent.

I think I need to focus on lowering the pressure in the engine bay. The new extractor hood should help. I haven't had a chance to drive the car at speed since we put it on... and I should probably avoid 100+ mph until my hood pins arrive.

Here's another car with the same hood to get an idea of the extractor:



The vent in the hood is about 14"x2", give or take, and positioned directly above the gap between the radiator and the motor. I replaced the stainless steel mesh (that probably blocked 50% of the area) with some cheap-o "gutter guard" plastic mesh (that blocks more like 1% of the area).

Short of aerodynamic testing of various undertray shapes, or possibly relocating the oil cooler to a fender and figuring out airflow there, or getting a $4000 v-mount, I'm out of ideas.

[AtomicLabMonkey]

The extractor might help quite a bit if you haven't run with it at speed yet. As far as other aero tweaks, I dunno if you just left it off but the pic only showed one side sealed from the bodywork opening to the rad. There are other things you can do to help vent air out of the engine bay; massaging the bodywork behind the tire as illustrated can help quite a bit. Keep in mind that anything you do to lower pressure under the hood will also act to cancel front lift/create front downforce, so it will exaggerate any current high speed oversteer tendencies. A fancy wing also usually isn't necessary to create some actual downforce on the rear end to balance things out - a NASCAR style spoiler is cheap, very simple, and effective. Might not be the look you want, but it works.

The other side of the equation is the coolant - I don't know what options are available, but have you looked into higher flow rate water pumps? Pushing more water through will work just as well if not better than pushing more air through the rad. Or maybe the current pump is starting to cavitate at high RPMs and needs to actually be slowed down? I know that would happen with the power steering pump in particular on the Mustangs. I dunno, things to think about.

[sperry]

That spot you indicated is effectively sealed off due to the sides of the radiator, oil cooler, and body right there. I'm sure it could be a little bit better sealed with some bulb-seal or something like I used on the other side, but there aren't any gaps larger than 1/8" over there and it would have required pulling the radiator and oil cooler out of the car, so I didn't bother when I did the other side (where there was like a 2" gap).

Do small gaps like that make a significant difference? I figure the air can flow through the radiator so much easier than the gaps that it wouldn't make a noticeable difference. Sure, every bit helps, but I wasn't too concerned. I guess I can try to take another pass over the layout of things and look for places to improve the sealing. I have a feeling there are similar gaps at the top and bottom of the radiator, even with an aftermarket upper shroud that supposed to seal it off. That too could use some bulb-seal I bet.

One thing to note about the fenders... while I do have the factory undertray on the car, I do *not* have the complete factory fender liners. That means the area on plane with the undertray between the framerails and outboard fenders is open. That's a spot that would get covered if I installed a splitter. I wonder how much that effects the overall anti-lift and air extraction from the under the hood. I removed that part of the fender liners specifically because they kept getting sucked off the car and yanked under the tire at speed. So, there is definitely some air flowing through there.

[AtomicLabMonkey]

If there are any gaps left around the radiator, I'd try sealing them off. All those little fins present a decent resistance (pressure drop), so air will slide around the rad just as easily as going through it.

[knucklesplitter]

There is an opening above the radiator where the factory "snorkus" used to be. It would help to seal that off somehow. That actually would be a good KSTech product. Hmmm...

[sperry]

Originally Posted by knucklesplitter

There is an opening above the radiator where the factory "snorkus" used to be. It would help to seal that off somehow. That actually would be a good KSTech product. Hmmm...

Now that you mention it... I never looked to notice if that new carbon hood has any rubber seal on it at all.

[A1337STI]

If the stock thermostat is 175 ish and you have a 160, but your car runs at 195 normally... why even have a thermostat in there? sure it speeds up your warm up time. but it sounds like your car will warm up fast enough with out it .

I would figure the added flow of not having a thermostat would be much better than any of the down sides. unless you are worried about having the heat working in the winter while driving to work to something

does running no thermostat cause too much water flow? take a busted one and drill out the center ?

since you do mostly track, how about a water sprayer for your radiator / Intercooler? Its cheap and affective. (spraying for 1 lap will take my car take my car from running hot, to running a normal temp) and carrying enough water for 20 minutes of spray wouldn't be an insane amount of weight. with a full stock tank i think i get about 10-15 minutes of spray time and i believe that's just 1 gallon. (or 8 pounds) You could probably find an inexpensive timer to do on/off cycles

Honestly you could buy a used kit from someone buy a little bit of extra hosing to run it to your front mount and try it. if it doesn't help at all you coudl sell it for the same price. making the finicial risk very low (much cheaper than going to a V-dam setup)

[sperry]

I've run a water sprayer on the front of the car before. I've even got a water spray computer to monitor temps and automatically spray the intercooler. And a spec-c water tank and massive pump.

Problem is... it would run non-stop at the track. Also, it needed some check valves because the sprayers were lower than the tank, resulting in a constant slow drip that would slowly drain the tank unless I clamped the hose off between sessions. Plus, it didn't make a noticeable difference back then... of course I also had a bunch of airflow issues, so a sprayer now might actually work a bit better than back then.

Eventually, that setup became a water injection setup, which eventually became the contents of a box in my garage. Maybe I should consider going back to it? I just would much rather not have to rely on complicated gizmos to keep the car cool. I just want to be able to drive the damn thing, and not fuss with it, which is why I ditched stuff like the water injection in the first place.

Maybe I should ditch the front mount and go to a giant TMIC? It's not like my horsepower goals require a FMIC. It would just be a ton of work to get an uncut bumper, a bumper beam, relocate my AOS (to who knows where), switch back to the stock hood, reinstall my STi hood scoop, get a new splitter (my STi splitter I think is in parts now), retune the car, all for the privileged of spending $1000 on a new intercooler/hoses.