External RAID Arrays

[Kevin M]

In the future (aside fromt eh flying cars) all of my data storage expansion will be in external drives. Far more convenient than using single bigass drives in a computer that;s waiting around to crash. Solid data backup is just too inexpensive and too easy these days. You can get a 1Tb RAID setup going for under $600 without even really trying to shop or Dean-style amazing deals.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

In the future (aside fromt eh flying cars) all of my data storage expansion will be in external drives. Far more convenient than using single bigass drives in a computer that;s waiting around to crash. Solid data backup is just too inexpensive and too easy these days. You can get a 1Tb RAID setup going for under $600 without even really trying to shop or Dean-style amazing deals.

You think an external drive that you swap in and out, move between systems, bump into stuff, etc is going to be more reliable than a drive inside a nice big PC tower? Computer crashes don't destroy data, physical drive crashes destroy data... and external drives are less protected than those inside a "permanent" case. Plus, I've never seen an external drive that's a 1TB RAID array.

Perhaps you're talking about network storage arrays, not external drives?

(Also 1Tb = 1 terrabit, which is only 128GB... bytes are capital B's )

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by sperry

You think an external drive that you swap in and out, move between systems, bump into stuff, etc is going to be more reliable than a drive inside a nice big PC tower? Computer crashes don't destroy data, physical drive crashes destroy data... and external drives are less protected than those inside a "permanent" case. Plus, I've never seen an external drive that's a 1TB RAID array.

Perhaps you're talking about network storage arrays, not external drives?

My RAID "array" will be a raid card in my next PC with 4 USB ports on the back, for 4 500gig HDDs. They would be placed in a manner where they would experience no more moving about or falling down than the tower they are connected to would. I just want the external setup because it's a bit more flexible and convenient if the tower they are connected to goes down or gets replaced. Then it's just swapping the card and reinstalling the software, instead of swapping 4 HDDs. It's certainly not the only good solution but based on my personal criteria I think I like it best.

(Also 1Tb = 1 terrabit, which is only 128GB... bytes are capital B's )

Um, that's what I meant... it's for my old Thy DungeonQuest games.

[sperry]

You're going to RAID four drives over USB? Nothing like getting 10% of the available performance! At *least* use ESATA or something that's not going to contend with each other on the bus, ignoring all the other problems with that plan.

[Dean]

The best reasonable option for private parties is external storage that matches the capacity of their total internal storage of all their machines plus any archival storage such as CD/DVDs smaller external drives, etc. they use.

This gives them 2 copies of everything, one of which they can grab and run with in case of a fire, etc.

If you want to do even better, you can 2X or 3X the external storage and always have one off-site.

There are plenty of good manual and automated products/processes to keep everything in sync.

I have 2 mirrored 2.2 terabyte servers with internal RAID 5 disks. I keep threatening to move one to my Dad's in Gardnerville and setup the sync accross the Internet, but haven't done it.

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by sperry

You're going to RAID four drives over USB? Nothing like getting 10% of the available performance! At *least* use ESATA or something that's not going to contend with each other on the bus, ignoring all the other problems with that plan.

That's what I meant. I've got two 500GB SATA drives in our server at work, expandable to 4. Dunno why I said USB.

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by Dean

The best reasonable option for private parties is external storage that matches the capacity of their total internal storage of all their machines plus any archival storage such as CD/DVDs smaller external drives, etc. they use.

This gives them 2 copies of everything, one of which they can grab and run with in case of a fire, etc.

If you want to do even better, you can 2X or 3X the external storage and always have one off-site.

There are plenty of good manual and automated products/processes to keep everything in sync.

I have 2 mirrored 2.2 terabyte servers with internal RAID 5 disks. I keep threatening to move one to my Dad's in Gardnerville and setup the sync accross the Internet, but haven't done it.

I just don't want to use my system HDDs on future computers for data storage. There are some good reasons for keeping your important programs (OS, etc.) on the C: drive and everything else separate. You guys have all done this before. I would rather create a central, mirrored data storage that I can plug computers into as I feel like. Sort of a movement back to dumb terminals but without the downsides of old mainframe stups.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

I just don't want to use my system HDDs on future computers for data storage. There are some good reasons for keeping your important programs (OS, etc.) on the C: drive and everything else separate. You guys have all done this before. I would rather create a central, mirrored data storage that I can plug computers into as I feel like. Sort of a movement back to dumb terminals but without the downsides of old mainframe stups.

That is fine, but a simple RAID 5 configuration in a single cabinet does not give you the same level of redundancy I am talking about. You need two physically separate copies of the data to be reasonably safe IMHO.

And NAS may be more complicated for some users than a good old USB solution, and NAS is typically more expensive.

And don't forget notebook users who need to have some subset of their data with them at all times.

[Kevin M]

Actually I don't see the advantage of RAID 5 over RAID 1+0 (not that there aren't any... 1+0 just seems simpler and has all the redundancy you'd need). Not that that's entirely relevant to the topic... which reminds me, sorry about all the OT in your classifieds thread Juice!

I'm more concerned with not having data only on a single drive to protect against drive failure. If the place burns down, then I'm just screwed. That's what renters/homeowners insurance is for; I'll have a pretty sweet multi-site data storage setup v 2.0 after I get that fat lump-sum check. And if users can't figure out how to map a network drive, they probably don't have a pressing need for strong data protection.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

Actually I don't see the advantage of RAID 5 over RAID 1+0 (not that there aren't any... 1+0 just seems simpler and has all the redundancy you'd need). Not that that's entirely relevant to the topic... which reminds me, sorry about all the OT in your classifieds thread Juice!

I'm more concerned with not having data only on a single drive to protect against drive failure. If the place burns down, then I'm just screwed. That's what renters/homeowners insurance is for; I'll have a pretty sweet multi-site data storage setup v 2.0 after I get that fat lump-sum check. And if users can't figure out how to map a network drive, they probably don't have a pressing need for strong data protection.

Having 4 drives means 4 times the likelihood of a failure. Granted, there's no data loss, but you're still down until you rebuild the array. For most home users, a single large drive, replaced every two years is an extremely economical and reliable solution. It's not like your mp3 and porno collection is exactly "mission critical".

RAID 5 has a huge advantage over RAID 0+1, you get nearly twice as much space on the array for the same number of disks. Five drives in a RAID 5 gives you the same space as eight drives in RAID 0+1. The *only* reason to ever use a mirroring solution is if you need no loss of performance if a single drive fails.

[sperry]

FYI, nice simple description of RAID levels: http://www.acnc.com/04_01_00.html

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by sperry

RAID 5 has a huge advantage over RAID 0+1, you get nearly twice as much space on the array for the same number of disks. Five drives in a RAID 5 gives you the same space as eight drives in RAID 0+1. The *only* reason to ever use a mirroring solution is if you need no loss of performance if a single drive fails.

Ah, that's right. As usual I read up and compared, and decided Raid 0+1 was better for us (no downtime if a drive fails) and promptly forgot about the process that led to the decision.

And my music collection is not "critical" but it is irreplacable in large part without spending a bunch of money, and completely irreplaceable without duplicating the hundreds of hours I've spent ripping CDs, downloading and sorting MP3s, and editing the tags.

[tysonK]

So I've never had anything worth backing up on my computer?

I must be missing something?

[Dean]

Originally Posted by tysonK

So I've never had anything worth backing up on my computer?

I must be missing something?

Where are all your digital pics?

[tysonK]

Originally Posted by Dean

Where are all your digital pics?

I don't really consider those worth saving. My best ones are online.

[ScottyS]

For backup or data serving that doesn't require super speed (like real-time vid editing), it's hard to beat Infrant's NV+. I'm running one at home and one at work.

[Double Phister]

Microsoft Home Server is going to be the new hot setup.
-Nightly backups.
-Central storage.
-Interface my Mom could figure out.
-Every peice of data is stored on at least two physical drives. No RAID to rebuild after a failure. Just get a new drive in there when you can.
-Data that is not different between computers is not needlessly duplicated between the backups.
-You can buy a hardware/software setup from the major players or just buy the software and dump it on a beige box you have laying around.
-more features not listed here.

[Kevin M]

Sounds nifty. Cost?

[Double Phister]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

Sounds nifty. Cost?

Dunno yet. There's a lot of buz around it. The OS was released to manufacturing a week or so ago. Home page says available in 'Fall'.

Product page

Reviewers Guide

Setup guide

[Dean]

Good stuff. Looks like it could be ideal for small businesses as well.

Why somebody didn't do a Knoppix of this type I don't know.

Imagine a bootable DVD that automatically identifies attached internal and external storage and fires up Samba, Apache and a VPN server... In the event of a HW failure all you do mis move the external drives and DVD and it finds the ID tags on the drives and fires up like nothing happened.

Web & local GUI for admin...

[A1337STI]

1+0 is different then 0+1

you can Stripe 2 drives,
Stripe two more,
and mirror those two stripes together.

1 fails and performance suffers
versus
mirror 2 drives
mirror 2 more
stripe those 2 mirrors.
1 fails and no performance hit is taken.

In my old video game box i just went with 0 as i didn't care if i lost my safe points or had to re-install the games. in a 1+0 or 1+0 depending on which drives die you can lose 2 drives and not lose any data. where as a RAid 5 if you lost 2 of 4 you lost everything. Course with 1+0 or 0+1 you could lose 2 of 4 and lose everything, depending on which drives.

Sure you lose more storage space in either 1+0 or 0+1 but you are (slightly) less likely to lose data. What's more important to your usage not losing data, or not losing as much space ?

[wrxkidid]

im so confused.

[kidatari]

I want one of these:

http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/content/view/30092/75/

Or a new Apple Airport Extreme, sicne now you can hook up an external USB HD and have it function as a NAS

[Dean]

Cool alternative to RAID...
http://www.drobo.com/

Keep adding any size drives or swap out the old small ones. Raid 5 like minimal overhead and similar reliability. Still need 3 drives to be worth while, but teh ability to add larger drives as they get cheap is cool. Looks like it is best to upgrade in pairs, but better than doing a whole array at a time. No, it is not cheap, but data protection ain't free.

[Double Phister]

Bump
MS Home Server OEM
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16832116395