Okay, now what? (sperry's motor tear-down thread)

[Dean]

Originally Posted by sperry

I'm stuck pulling the timing gears off the motor. Last time this happened, Cory and I tried to leave the timing belt on and yank the gear... but that didn't work and as the gear would slip the belt before the bolt came loose. And I'm having the same problem this time.

So, instead of getting out the chain wrench and destroying the timing gears (which won't be $30 like last time, since those AVCS gears have got to be *expensive*) I think I need to find the real-deal Subaru retainer wrenches.

Anyone know where to get 'em, hopefully w/o having to pay $200 for 'em or something? Cory or Jeremy, can you get 'em via your professional connections?

Do you have one of those rubber strap wrenches? Kinda like the chain, but not as harsh.

Could also wrap an old timing belt around it a couple times and then use the chain wrench.

Would a stronger impact wrench help?

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Dean

Do you have one of those rubber strap wrenches? Kinda like the chain, but not as harsh.

Could also wrap an old timing belt around it a couple times and then use the chain wrench.

Would a stronger impact wrench help?

I can't use an impact, I don't have a 10mm hex wrench for it. I'm using a my hex wrench w/ my jack handle over it... so that's like a 24" lever arm.

I don't have an old belt lying around, and a rubber strap wrench doesn't work (we tired that last time before resorting to the 2 foot long chain wrench Cory's got).

[Dean]

Just throwing out ideas. Cam bolt is a 10mm hex? That is a dumb design.

Use the belt you have and buy a new one for when you put it back together.

Impact and lever arm are different forces, sort of. That is why you can use an impact while a wheel is in the air and able to spin freely and you can't use a torque wrench. This should be similar. The tools you have will only allow you to apply a small resistance to the gear but you want to apply a larger force to the bolt.

And sometimes a few hits in the tightening direction will help break things loose.

I know I have a 10mm on a 3/8 drive, not sure about a 1/2" if you want to try it. Or use a 10mm impact socket with a cut off 10mm allen wrench.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Dean

Just throwing out ideas. Cam bolt is a 10mm hex? That is a dumb design.

Use the belt you have and buy a new one for when you put it back together.

Impact and lever arm are different forces, sort of. That is why you can use an impact while a wheel is in the air and able to spin freely and you can't use a torque wrench. This should be similar. The tools you have will only allow you to apply a small resistance to the gear but you want to apply a larger force to the bolt.

And sometimes a few hits in the tightening direction will help break things loose.

I know I have a 10mm on a 3/8 drive, not sure about a 1/2" if you want to try it. Or use a 10mm impact socket with a cut off 10mm allen wrench.

Unless I go out and get an impact wrench that generates like 600 ftlbs of torque, it's not going to break these bolts loose. It's like taking off the crank pulley (which needed my breaker bar plus the jack handle).

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by sperry

Unless I go out and get an impact wrench that generates like 600 ftlbs of torque, it's not going to break these bolts loose. It's like taking off the crank pulley (which needed my breaker bar plus the jack handle).

What are their torque specs? When I had the 1.6 apart my dinky (<200lb*ft) 3/8" impact wrench spun all the cam & crank bolts right off. I think the highest torque spec was 80something lb*ft on the crank bolt.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by sperry

Unless I go out and get an impact wrench that generates like 600 ftlbs of torque, it's not going to break these bolts loose. It's like taking off the crank pulley (which needed my breaker bar plus the jack handle).

Cory's got an awesome set of tools... And as I was saying, impact often needs less torque than a breaker bar.

[GST Mike]

Scott, we have to use high torque impact guns on those bolts and in some cases that wont even do it so we use Butane heat for a while on the bolt and then impact it again.

Mike

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Dean

Cory's got an awesome set of tools... And as I was saying, impact often needs less torque than a breaker bar.

Check this: http://bbs-qq.cn/topic-964052.html

People w/ 900ftlb guns can't get 'em off. Impact simply doesn't work... you need a massive breaker bar, and some way to hold the sprocket. It seems I should be able to get the non-AVCS sprockets off by putting a wrench on the cam itself w/ the valve covers off... but the AVCS cams don't have a wrench slot.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by GST Mike

Scott, we have to use high torque impact guns on those bolts and in some cases that wont even do it so we use Butane heat for a while on the bolt and then impact it again.

Mike

A torch certainly would help.

...but I don't have one of those.

[GST Mike]

They are cheap and work well, the only way we ever get them off is with a impact gun. From time to time we weld a nut to the cam bolt but that is a rare thing to have to do.

I have yet to see the cam wrench for a AVCS head, if you find one please let me know I will buy a couple for the shop.

Mike

[Dean]

Originally Posted by GST Mike

Scott, we have to use high torque impact guns on those bolts and in some cases that wont even do it so we use Butane heat for a while on the bolt and then impact it again.

Mike

And I have a torch if you don't want to spend the $6.99 - 16.99 on one.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=91894

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=91061

Or you can spend $100 on a craftsman.

http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/produ...seBVCookie=Yes

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by sperry

A torch certainly would help.

...but I don't have one of those.

Go get one at the hardware store, they're cheap. Propane is cheapest and coolest, you can also use a MAPP gas bottle for higher heat.

[sperry]

On second thought... do I even need to take the sprockets off to remove the heads? I was assuming that the plastic cover behind the sprocket had to come off in order to remove the heads, is that the case?

[GST Mike]

Originally Posted by sperry

On second thought... do I even need to take the sprockets off to remove the heads? I was assuming that the plastic cover behind the sprocket had to come off in order to remove the heads, is that the case?

You should take them off to remove the under plastic covers, if not you'll be buying new ones.

I would recommend removing the cam sprockets and doing it right. If you keep the timing belt on you should be able to impact the bolts out with a little heat. Also get a 1/2 hex don't get a smaller one and reduce the 1/2 drive as that absorbs the tq.

Mike

[sperry]

I'm afraid my impact won't get it loose even with the torch. Plus the exhaust sprockets are plastic... if I'm gonna melt them w/ a torch, I might as well just use the chain wrench on them.

[sperry]

Hey Mike, one more thing about the AVCS on my car... it wasn't hooked up! Doesn't the Hydra use the TGV wiring to control the AVCS? My TGV plugs were still zip-tied out of the way when I pulled the harness off, and there was nothing attached to the AVCS solenoids.

Any info on how to hook that stuff up properly when I put the motor back together?

[GST Mike]

Originally Posted by sperry

I'm afraid my impact won't get it loose even with the torch. Plus the exhaust sprockets are plastic... if I'm gonna melt them w/ a torch, I might as well just use the chain wrench on them.

If your applying heat to the bolt you wont melt the hardened plastic of the cam gears just don't sit there heating it for 30 mins, also the plastic has metal directly under the cam bolt.

Either way I am just letting you know how the guys get them off you don't have to do it this way I am sure a 50lb club hammer would remove them as well

Mike

[GST Mike]

Originally Posted by sperry

Hey Mike, one more thing about the AVCS on my car... it wasn't hooked up! Doesn't the Hydra use the TGV wiring to control the AVCS? My TGV plugs were still zip-tied out of the way when I pulled the harness off, and there was nothing attached to the AVCS solenoids.

Any info on how to hook that stuff up properly when I put the motor back together?

I can send you the wiring schematics for it, you will have to add some wires.

Mike

[sperry]

Originally Posted by GST Mike

I can send you the wiring schematics for it, you will have to add some wires.

Mike

If you could, email them to me! I'm assuming it's just rewiring the Hydra's harness, and filing the AVCS solenoid plugs so the TGV wires clip to them, no?

[MPREZIV]

I've got a 1/2 inch impact that I GUARANTEE will take it off, and a 10mm 1/2 drive hex bit as well. Even all the power we generated with my chain wrench and Matt leaning on the breaker bar, will not match the impact force of my twin-titanium hammer 900 reverse ft-lb impact gun.

[100_Percent_Juice]

Originally Posted by MPREZIV

Even all the power we generated with my chain wrench and Matt leaning on the breaker bar, will not match the impact force of my twin-titanium hammer 900 reverse ft-lb impact gun.

Thats more power than that Dean storm.

[MPREZIV]

Oh, AND, Jeremy told me last time we were fighting this that he'd be glad to let us use the factory tool, but it's a big piece of shit! It's about the same gauge metal as a soda can, and twists the head around before you ever get enough leverage to come close to getting that bolt out.

[sperry]

I wonder if my airtank can drive that gun Cory... if so, we should give it a shot.

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by sperry

I wonder if my airtank can drive that gun Cory... if so, we should give it a shot.

You don't have a compressor?

[MPREZIV]

Went to Scott's tonight. Brought my gun, but his compressor doesn't have NEARLY the volume that my gun needs.

I squeezed the crap out of the belt around the gears with my hands, and Scott leaned on the breaker bar with the jack handle on it. Finally got them out. All four. In fact, Scott's gun would have probably taken those out of there, if he had an allen bit to fit it, and a compressor to drive it.

Pulled the heads off as well. Nothing really noteworthy found there either, other than his #1 piston stinks really bad. Like, I asked him if he cut one. Stinks. No visible damage in the cylinder walls or camshaft area. There's TONS of the metal shavings he metioned in the bottom end tho. Looks like a bearing or two is gone in the crank. All that's left is to split the block.