Okay, now what? (sperry's motor tear-down thread)

[MPREZIV]

Originally Posted by Road_Kill

.... It's gotta be a mix between people that build engines that don't give a shit and a mis-tune... Hey wait.... sounds like an engine in a yellow race car that I own.

"Don't worry dude! I'll just JB Weld this distributor back together! No problem!"

[sperry]

Originally Posted by sperry

Speaking of oil cooling, there are two ports on the oil pump that are capped off... is that for a factory oil cooler? Can I ditch the relocation adapter and just run AN or pipe fittings off those ports?

Originally Posted by sperry

And at some point I need to figure out which ancillary water pipes I can remove from the motor. I figure I don't need the de-icing coolant that flows around the butterfly, or the pipes that route water to the heater core, right? Can I just remove that stuff and cap it at the block, or do I need to just jumper the pipes together to bypass the flow and leave the pipes there?

I'd much rather ditch anything on the motor that's unnecessary.

Bump for unanswered questions. Anyone know this stuff?

[Kevin M]

I'm not sure on the oil pump question, but on the water pipes the safe choice would be to route them back together. It may be safe to cap them off, but it's 100% certain it's not going to be a reliability issue down the road if you let the coolant circulate through them. There could be a passage on the return side that wouldn't get fed if you capped them off, even though it's unlikely and not very logical.

[ryan4601]

I second kevin on the coolant lines. I have the throttle body by passed on my car. I just used a hose to go around the TB. Not to sure on the other coolant line. Like kevin said, safer to just route them back into the system.
ryan

[GST Mike]

The factory Subaru oil cooler kits (as used on spec C's etc etc) replace the heat exchanger under the oil filter, my initial thoughts are there is a reason those ports are not used on the oil pump although I confess to not knowing why nor having ever used them before.

Speaking of oil pumps, Scott concidering oiling issues have plagued you I think you should contact Japanparts.com regarding the 12mm pump they have been importing. I tested one on one of our cars and found the increase in oil pressure and ability to maintain more as the rpms raised a worthwhile benifit. The pump cost us $165 shipped from Japan and we simply shimmed the relief valve as we have always.

As for the coolant lines we typically route them back to themselves, originally we tried capping things and such on the L and all we did is create a nightmare as far as bleeding and maintaining the system goes, we also tried some other funky stuff so hard to point any fingers as why the whole setup we tested sucked so badly.

If I can help any further drop me a line offline and I'll help in anyway I can.

Mike

[sperry]

Thanks for the info Mike!

Oh, what's the P/N on that oil pump from JapanParts.com? Is it 113-037-15010?

[sybir]

Scott,

Order stuff through Graham on NASIOC and you'll get 10% off japanparts.com orders.
I'm aobut to order some dash bits (probably a few weeks off), but they're supposed to ship pretty quickly (like 10-15 days).

[Dean]

Hey Scott, need a cylinder bore gauge?

http://reno.craigslist.org/tls/433384871.html

[sperry]

Here's a copy of the thread I started on NASIOC... anyone here have some suggestions?

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...php?p=20496591

Originally Posted by sperry's NASIOC thread

Two problems... one the filter came loose on track and sucked up a bunch of grit... enough to make the turbo look like this:



All that crap in the motor seems to have left some nice scoring on the cylinders:

Cyl 1:

http://www.seccs.org/gallery/Car%20P...ders/cyl1a.JPG
http://www.seccs.org/gallery/Car%20P...ders/cyl1b.JPG

Cyl 2:
http://www.seccs.org/gallery/Car%20P...ders/cyl2a.JPG
http://www.seccs.org/gallery/Car%20P...ders/cyl2b.JPG

Cyl 3:
http://www.seccs.org/gallery/Car%20P...ders/cyl3a.JPG
http://www.seccs.org/gallery/Car%20P...ders/cyl3b.JPG

Cyl 4:
http://www.seccs.org/gallery/Car%20P...ders/cyl4a.JPG
http://www.seccs.org/gallery/Car%20P...ders/cyl4b.JPG

Cylinders 1 and 3 seem the worst. You can just barely feel the scoring with your finger. 2 and 4 you can see the lines, but they still feel smooth.

Here's the #1 piston, the other 3 are in identical shape:


http://www.seccs.org/gallery/Car%20P...s/piston1a.JPG
http://www.seccs.org/gallery/Car%20P...s/piston1b.JPG
http://www.seccs.org/gallery/Car%20P...s/piston1c.JPG
http://www.seccs.org/gallery/Car%20P...s/piston1d.JPG
http://www.seccs.org/gallery/Car%20P...s/piston1e.JPG
http://www.seccs.org/gallery/Car%20P...s/piston1f.JPG


Additionally in an unrelated issue (oil starvation) I lost a bearing on rod #3, (which is why I ended up tearing the motor down):


http://www.seccs.org/gallery/Car%20P...ders/rod3a.JPG
http://www.seccs.org/gallery/Car%20P...ders/rod3b.JPG
http://www.seccs.org/gallery/Car%20P...ders/rod3c.JPG


http://www.seccs.org/gallery/Car%20P...rs/crank3a.JPG
http://www.seccs.org/gallery/Car%20P...rs/crank3b.JPG
http://www.seccs.org/gallery/Car%20P...rs/crank3c.JPG
http://www.seccs.org/gallery/Car%20P...rs/crank3d.JPG
http://www.seccs.org/gallery/Car%20P...rs/crank3e.JPG
http://www.seccs.org/gallery/Car%20P...rs/crank3f.JPG
http://www.seccs.org/gallery/Car%20P...rs/crank3g.JPG


Here's the crappy part: The motor has only about 1500 miles on it since the last rebuild... which included boring to 100mm. So, without sleeving the block, I can't bore it again, plus the pistons are brand stinking new coated JE forged pistons. Will I be able to simply hone the block and install new rings? Granted it'll be a bit of a "loose" motor, but that's not terrible since it's a time trials car and I've got a big old vent to atmosphere oil breather can, so a bit of blow-by isn't the end of the world.

The other issue is whether or not the crank is toast. I guess I could have it machined and run some oversized rod bearings, but with all this machine work I'm wondering if it would just be cheaper and better to pick up a new shortblock. My back up plan was just to get a Cobb tuner block w/ forged pistons, but they went and stopped selling them.

So... anyone got some advice for getting this thing back together or any recommendations for picking up a new lightly built shortblock (forged pistons and race bearings)?

Thanks in advanced.

[Dean]

I think you can salvage most of your stuff.

Turbo can be repaired for probably way less than new.

A new set of rings for the pistons should be all they need assuming the tops aren't beat up. The scratches on the skirts should be no big deal as long as the ring groves are good

Somebody who knows more would have to gauge the bore scratches. They may come out with a light hone. Otherwise cylinders aren't that expensive.

Clean up the races, Replace the bearings and move on.

Unless a short block is stupid cheap, that should be the cheapest way to go and should last 75-125% as long as any other rebuilt short block.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Dean

I think you can salvage most of your stuff.

Turbo can be repaired for probably way less than new.

A new set of rings for the pistons should be all they need assuming the tops aren't beat up. The scratches on the skirts should be no big deal as long as the ring groves are good

Somebody who knows more would have to gauge the bore scratches. They may come out with a light hone. Otherwise cylinders aren't that expensive.

Clean up the races, Replace the bearings and move on.

Unless a short block is stupid cheap, that should be the cheapest way to go and should last 75-125% as long as any other rebuilt short block.

I'm not rebuilding a $1000 turbo that's too small for what I'm doing anyway.

If I hone the cylinders more than .05mm the car will have a bunch of blow-by unless I can get some oversized rings. And even then, there will be a bunch of wobble to the pistons. I'll end up with pretty bad compression, which may or may not be a big deal. However, "cylinders are not that expensive" is not at all true. Sleeving the block will likely cost more than a new shortblock.

Cleaning up the races and replacing the bearings isn't simple. It means getting the crank cut on all 4 cylinder races, getting custom sized bearings, and potentially replacing all the rods. At that cost, paying the $1500 for a new crank is probably cheaper.

A shortblock with forged pistons for $2500 sounds damn cheap if we're talking $2000 for sleeves and $1500 for a crank, and $200 for a rod. Plus $200 for bearings. Then paying to assemble it all.

[Kevin M]

The grooves on the piston skirts shouldn't be a problem so, lik Dean said, if the tops are okay then keep them and reuse. So chances are, a new shortblock is your easiest route, whether you bore it for your forged pistons or not. Maybe just get a stock shortblock and keep the pistons around for if/when it needs another rebuild?

[Dean]

OK, junk the turbo then. Don't post pictures of it asking for opinions?

I believe honing is in the .005 range, not the .05, but may be wrong.

I didn't say it was simple, but I would think once over bearings would be common, not "custom" and relatively inexpensive, and that next bearing size is what you have the shaft cut to, but what do I know.

Señor Cheap Bastard is all about whichever is cheaper. Is that $2500 for a new short or somebody else's busted up rebuild? If it is new and rebuilding yours is anywhere near $2K, I'd agree to go with new. If yours is $1500, or the $2500 is for a rebuild, that becomes a tougher choice.

There is also the psychological piece. If you rebuild your's, you either have a known quantity or a reason to be totally pissed at yourself for not getting a new one when it breaks again, but who says a new one will be any better???

[sperry]

I wasn't posting pictures of the turbo other than to illustrate the junk the motor ingested. I guess I could have just as easily posted the video of your car throwing the dirt at me.

$2500 should be for a brand new block, with new forged pistons, but no bearings.

If light honing is enough to clear up the scoring in the cylinders then that would be cheaper, my concern is whether or not that would be enough. I guess the only way to find out is to bring it to a machine shop. Same goes with the crank.

All that machine work adds up, plus the cost of assembly. Eventually it's cheaper just to get an assembled brand new shortblock.

[MikeK]

I think the real question should be why did this happen (the oiling problem, not the ingested gravel). What are you going to change with your oil system to make sure the next block doesn't blow up?

And fwiw, I vote for a new shortblock, already assembled by someone else. Even a stock STi shortblock for $1800 should last a while.

[wrxkidid]

I vote new shortblock and use the excess funds for a dry sump system...

[sperry]

Originally Posted by MikeK

I think the real question should be why did this happen (the oiling problem, not the ingested gravel). What are you going to change with your oil system to make sure the next block doesn't blow up?

And fwiw, I vote for a new shortblock, already assembled by someone else. Even a stock STi shortblock for $1800 should last a while.

After talking w/ the Benson's, I'm thinking the culprit is my oil cooler setup. I used the right gauge tubing, but I had like 6 90deg angle fittings in the circuit, and according to Greg one 90deg fitting is the equivalent of 12 ft of hose.

Plus, my oil temp and pressure fittings were in the remote filter block, so I never had the actual oil pressure in the engine on my gauges... so even when I had good readings, it's likely I was starving the motor of oil.

So, on the new motor, I'm going with a sandwich adapter and as short as possible on the hoses, plus I've got a 12mm JDM oil pump on order that I'll shim, and I'm taking Mike W. up on his offer to source me a Cosworth oil pan. So, the oiling issues should be as solved as possible w/o inventing a dry sump setup (not even the rally teams need to dry sump the boxer motor, they should be very resilient to starvation if you've got a properly baffled oil pan). And with the fixed oiling issues, I bet my cooling problems go away too... since the heat I was seeing was only when I was turning the car hard. I could floor it on every straight and not over-heat, but as soon as I was going all out in the corners, that's when the oil temps would jump.

[IheartSTI]

Originally Posted by MikeK

I think the real question should be why did this happen (the oiling problem, not the ingested gravel). What are you going to change with your oil system to make sure the next block doesn't blow up?

And fwiw, I vote for a new shortblock, already assembled by someone else. Even a stock STi shortblock for $1800 should last a while.

I have a stock 05 STI short block for sale and i probably can be swindled down cheaper than 1800. food for thought

[knucklesplitter]

FWIW Gruppe-S has built motors. I have no idea if these are any good, but the prices seem reasonable:
http://www.gruppe-s.com/Subaru/submotors.htm

I would polish or turn your crank, get new bearings if needed, reuse the pistons and just have your block lightly rehoned. New rod and rings too I guess. The bores should be good enough. I can get them measured if need-be at the machine shop I use for all my KSTech machine work.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by IheartSTI

I have a stock 05 STI short block for sale and i probably can be swindled down cheaper than 1800. food for thought

I'm pretty sure I can get a brand new short block from Subaru for less than that, but I'll keep it in mind if things don't work out otherwise.

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by knucklesplitter

FWIW Gruppe-S has built motors. I have no idea if these are any good, but the prices seem reasonable:
http://www.gruppe-s.com/Subaru/submotors.htm

I would polish or turn your crank, get new bearings if needed, reuse the pistons and just have your block lightly rehoned. New rod and rings too I guess. The bores should be good enough. I can get them measured if need-be at the machine shop I use for all my KSTech machine work.

Mike @ GST is pretty authoritative on those.

[GST Mike]

Originally Posted by sperry

After talking w/ the Benson's, I'm thinking the culprit is my oil cooler setup. I used the right gauge tubing, but I had like 6 90deg angle fittings in the circuit, and according to Greg one 90deg fitting is the equivalent of 12 ft of hose.

Plus, my oil temp and pressure fittings were in the remote filter block, so I never had the actual oil pressure in the engine on my gauges... so even when I had good readings, it's likely I was starving the motor of oil.

So, on the new motor, I'm going with a sandwich adapter and as short as possible on the hoses, plus I've got a 12mm JDM oil pump on order that I'll shim, and I'm taking Mike W. up on his offer to source me a Cosworth oil pan. So, the oiling issues should be as solved as possible w/o inventing a dry sump setup (not even the rally teams need to dry sump the boxer motor, they should be very resilient to starvation if you've got a properly baffled oil pan). And with the fixed oiling issues, I bet my cooling problems go away too... since the heat I was seeing was only when I was turning the car hard. I could floor it on every straight and not over-heat, but as soon as I was going all out in the corners, that's when the oil temps would jump.

I wouldn't hold too much stock in what the WRC teams use, the main culprit to the oiling issues seen on track cars is the G's and high rpms which rallys car typically see neither of.

Mike

[sperry]

Originally Posted by GST Mike

I wouldn't hold too much stock in what the WRC teams use, the main culprit to the oiling issues seen on track cars is the G's and high rpms which rallys car typically see neither of.

Mike

True, rally is a different breed of racing. My point was more that teams with a WRC budget still don't dry sump when they would if there was an advantage to doing so... I should be able to come up with something that works.

[GST Mike]

A shimmed oil pump with a decent oil pan and baffle setup will work, we use that very setup.

I think if the Subaru team had to endure high rpms with the g's you see on track they would use a dry sump but based on most usable power being well south of 6k on their cars I can imagine there is no gain to using the dry sump.

They do run a pretty trick oil pan setup due in part to ground clearance and the setup of the manifold they use (I have one here and it's sick!)

Mike

[sperry]

Well, the block, crank, rods and pistons are dropped off at AIMS. When one of the machinists gets a chance to look at it, they'll give me a call and let me know what's repairable.

The good news is they've been doing a lot of Subaru work lately, so this shouldn't be a job out of left-field for them. Though the service writer had a hard time understanding me when I was telling him the block was already bored to 100mm.

"The cylinders are already at 100mm, so I don't think they can be bored further."
"They're 1mm over?"
"No they're at 100mm."
"No, people usually say they're 1mm over, or 040."
"Uh, no, the diameter of the pistons is 100mm, i.e. 10cm."

I wish I remember the stock bore (99.5mm apparently) so I could have told him they're .020 over.