Exhaust cut-out & more on the road tuning.

[cody]

I have a pretty standard setup and the Protuner allows you to tune much more quickly since you don't have to stop and shut off the car to reflash the new map. It really shouldn't take him anywhere as long to tune my car as it took to tune Jeremy's car. Jeremy's car had tons of mods to tune around (turbo, Perrin Boost Controller, lightened flywheel, Legacy body/chassis etc.). My car is on the stock turbo with only a UP and TBE...really easy tune. Road Tuning Jeremy's car must have been insane with all the power he was putting down.

I'm also not concerned about wear and tear. I am pretty sure that the tuning session will put less wear on the car than an Auto-X or even a load bearing dyno would. Overheating will certainly be less of a concern.

I am, however, very reluctent to drive 100+ on backroads, no matter how straight and deserted (although that helps), but it's not like I haven't done that just for fun in the past. I can promise you that there is a very real threshold to the amount of danger I will expose myself, Ed, my car, and innocent bystandards through. If I'm uncomfortable at any point, I will slow down. If Ed can't tune under those conditions, I'll be going elsewhere. I'm going to tell him so after he answers my question about how fast I need to go over the posted speed limit to get a good tune.

Isn't it true that pulls on a load bearing dyno rarely exceed 75 mph anyway?

[Nick Koan]

Originally Posted by cody

Isn't it true that pulls on a load bearing dyno rarely exceed 75 mph anyway?

usually WOT in 3rd gear, which is a bit more then 75, but not more then 100 IIRC.

[sonicsuby]

My concern with wear and tear was less in regards to the speed at which the vehicle travels and more with the fact that potholes, dips, rocks, bumps and other fun things are on the road and not on a dyno.

[Kevin M]

Ed tunes in 4th gear, most other tuners use 3rd gear.

[Dean]

Real "Street" tuners use reverse yo...

I'm out...

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by cody

I'm honestly not too worried about this same thing happening to my car. Call me stupid...

No one will ever truly know but him, but his story smells of BS. He was probably just driving like an assclown and got bit. So yes, IMHO it would be stupid to hand him the keys to your car.

[Kevin M]

Agreed Austin. I've driven tens of thousands of miles on S03s... they don't turn to "wet glass"... period.

[tysonK]

sperry your posts were great in the

i-club thread

really made my thursday night!

[qksubi]

Originally Posted by Dean

Real "Street" tuners use reverse yo...

I'm out...

[Kevin M]

Nice job Scott. You brought up everything I wanted to but refrained from to avoid being labeled a shit-stirrer and reheating the stupid EQ vs. S^2 crap. Ed is a manipulator and twister of words. I would be utterly shocked to ever see him say "shit happened, and it was my fault." I'm just waiting for the day when he can finally afford an actual storefront and a *gasp* dyno of his own and says "street tuning is unsafe and less effective than a dynomometer."

[cody]

Wow, you guys sure are opinionated on this subject. That's ok though, I'm the same way about certain things.

According to Ed, We will only be redlining in 3rd and some lower RPM testing in 4th just to check for boost spikes. I will do all the driving (which is what I had thought, but you guys confused me with the, "I wouldn't hand my keys to that lying, ignorant piece of crap," or whatever.

The part of road we'll be breaking the law and endangering lives on will have very little traffic, no cross streets, long, straigth, flat, high visibility. I'd be surprised if most of you Negative Nancys haven't at one time or another done somthing similar in an area like this just for fun. It's a lot safer than idiots who drive like maniacs on windy mtn roads where one day they will come out of a corner sliding and a broken down car will be there in front of them. Boom.

Again, thank you to those of you that have brought insight into this thread, but some of you are living up to your reputation, unfortunately. You guys dragged this thread from a question about a cut-out to a, "Let's flame Ed party". No big deal, but I'm going to stay out of it from here on out (unless one of you flames me, then it's on. )

Thanks,
Cody

Also, which one of you is Scott?

[Nick Koan]

It takes a lot to assume that we've all driven like that on the street. Most everyone here is an experiened track and/or auto-x driver, and most rarely take it more then 10 over the speed limit on the street.

but, if it makes you feel better to think that everyone does it...

To assume that we break the law, so its okay for you to is pretty asinine.

[cody]

And there's the flame that brings me back into this. Re-read what I said. I know it's easy to twist sombody's words, but when it's right there in front of you, well, just re-read it.

[Nick Koan]

Originally Posted by cody

And there's the flame that brings me back into this. Re-read what I said. I know it's easy to twist sombody's words, but when it's right there in front of you, well, just re-read it.

I've read that argument a million times, from a thousand of Ed's fanbois. And I've read yours specifically at least three times.

I don't think we'll change each others minds in this case, but you should know that I full reccomend having Ed take you to a dyno for a tune.

[qksubi]

How much can you be saving by not getting a proper tune by a shop that has the right equipment vs risking a ticket or worse

[cody]

Hi qksubi, I was wondering when sombody was going to ask me my rational. I think a road tune is better because A. The car is getting the proper airflow over the IC and radiator, and B. The tune should be fine tuned to real life driving, not rollers that simulate real life. There's nothing wrong with starting on the dyno, but the best best tune starts on the dyno and then is fine tuned on the track. Sadly, that would be cost prohibitive and this is the next best thing for me.

Please feel free to offer the counter-arguments guys, but stop flaming me please.

[Nick Koan]

In my opinion, if you can't afford the dyno tune/road tweak, a dyno tune is still better then a road tune. The predictability and repeatability of a dyno (not to mention that you won't run the risk of speeding on public roads) is much safer for your car. The 'realness' you gain is really negligable when you consider the repeatability that you gain from dyno runs. Your radiator and intercooler get as much air as they need (esp. considering dyno pulls are only for a few seconds) and you really need not worry about the lack of airflow comprimising your tune. There is a heatsoak issue between runs, but that never occurs during the runs.

Repeatability is one of the main tennants of the scientific and engineering methods. Running on unpredictable roads will give you unpredictable results. Ed claims to have a predictable road, so maybe you'll be okay, but I can't see it as really being any sort of advantage over a dyno. I bet you'll probably save $300 by going to Ed, so maybe that is a good reason to choose him.

I know we've had tons of PM conversations over this, so there isn't any need to re-hash this. I guess we'll just stop it here. Also, I get the feeling you are thinking I'm flaming you, I'm not. I'm simply disagreeing. If it seems like flaming, let me assure you that it isn't. And look, we didn't turn this thread into a 'bash ed' fest. You mentioned you were going to get a tune from him, and everyone here is concerned for your car and is trying to let you know how dangerous this may be. We're not here to bash Ed (I doubt he's even reading this), its more a chance to impart some of the wisdom a lot of us have picked up after being on these boards for years. If you want to ignore it, thats really no skin off our teeth.

And FWIW, I have certainly seen Ed put down some good, safe numbers, so I do wish nothing but good luck to you, even if I disagree.

[qksubi]

[qksubi]

So you dont think a good shop can't simulate driving conditions on the dyno Im not expert by any means on dyno's and Im sure someone will correct me but thats what a mustang dyno does if it is correctly calibrated. Are you in reno tuning at this altitude that would be my only reason for road tunning because we have no dyno's(4wd) in reno

[Dean]

I have refrained from chiming in as I do not want to get into the dyno vs. road piece and the professionals vs. amateurs with Scott and Kevin. We disagree, end of discussion.

That said, I do not condone Ed's methods of high speed runs on the street.

I do agree however with a number of your thoughts on real road performance vs. the Dyno. Dynos are not magic. Repeatable, yes, realistic, well, who knows. Real race teams do both... Dyno, and real world tuning.

You can read all my opinions back in the coutless ECUtek vs. Accessport threads.

I still feel a day/week/month/lifetime of data logging and making small tweeks over time is probably the best way to tune a car. 3-5 pulls on a Dyno or 5-10 runs on an empty stretch of road cannot compare to 100s of street miles, 10s of autocross runs, and maybe 100s of track miles of test and tune at RFR...

Have a professional do your base maps on whatever system, and then if you want to go further, make sure the system you selected gives you that option.

[cody]

qksubi, you're right, a road tune up here would be beneficial. I didn't even bother to ask if anybody is interested in having Ed up for a tune fest since, A. I'm not hearing anyone agree that road tuning with Ed is a smart move, and B. I don't know of a road that equals the quality of the one Ed claims to have. But Ed even told me that it would be beneficial to get tuned at the elevation the car lives at. Please let me know if anyone wants to have Ed up and knows of a good location to do it.

nKoan, I do appreciate your insight, as I've said before. I've tried hard to make it painfully obvious that I'm not "ignor[ing]" it. The points that you guys have made are all valid. The only thing I disagree with is that the danger is so high, that I'm wrong to go through with it.

[Dean]

Thinking about it, RFR would make a good "4W Dyno" at our altitude...

Running clockwise, cominig out of 5 up hill into the esses and onto the front straight would be a great repeatable stretch of tarmac with a little extra load form the incline. Then a very reasonable cruise back around the track to maybe stage cars in turn 8 or 10...

Bet you could get a deal on an unused weekday.

Just thinking out loud...

[cody]

Originally Posted by Dean

I have refrained from chiming in as I do not want to get into the dyno vs. road piece and the professionals vs. amateurs with Scott and Kevin. We disagree, end of discussion.

That said, I do not condone Ed's methods of high speed runs on the street.

I do agree however with a number of your thoughts on real road performance vs. the Dyno. Dynos are not magic. Repeatable, yes, realistic, well, who knows. Real race teams do both... Dyno, and real world tuning.

You can read all my opinions back in the coutless ECUtek vs. Accessport threads.

I still feel a day/week/month/lifetime of data logging and making small tweeks over time is probably the best way to tune a car. 3-5 pulls on a Dyno or 5-10 runs on an empty stretch of road cannot compare to 100s of street miles, 10s of autocross runs, and maybe 100s of track miles of test and tune at RFR...

Have a professional do your base maps on whatever system, and then if you want to go further, make sure the system you slected gives you that option.

Good points Dean. Street Tuner should be a cool tool (especially for us high elevation folk). But I would never trust myself with the power to destroy my engine/turbo. The other thing I forgot to mention is that Ed will spend lots of time tuning until it is perfect. I am a big fan (not fanboy! )of attention to detail and that is what Ed is touted for.

[cody]

Originally Posted by Dean

Thinking about it, RFR would make a good "4W Dyno" at our altitude...

Running clockwise, cominig out of 5 up hill into the esses and onto the front straight would be a great repeatable stretch of tarmac with a little extra load form the incline. Then a very reasonable cruise back around the track to maybe stage cars in turn 8 or 10...

Bet you could get a deal on an unused weekday.

Just thinking out loud...

Dean, don't you want a flat straight piece of asphalt (tarmac is for Brits ) for road tuning? I couldn't tell if you were being sarcastic. BTW, I'm very interested and Ed will travel if we can get a couple guys interested.

[Nick Koan]

Originally Posted by cody

Dean, don't you want a flat straight piece of asphalt (tarmac is for Brits ) for road tuning? I couldn't tell if you were being sarcastic. BTW, I'm very interested and Ed will travel if we can get a couple guys interested.

once you've got the main tune down on a straight piece (or dyno ), any sort of load should be fine, as long as it is repeatable.

And the turns Dead described are certainly decent choices in that department.