BUSTED!!!!

[zpeed]

Take you pick 12 years wait + lot of $$$ in application fee VS 1 week running and free?

[dknv]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

That's pretty standard, and it's why I no longer mind illegals from Mexico very much, because I can't in good conscience say that they should do it the legal way, because it's basically impossible.

Ok, after talking about this with Rachel, she told me about a couple of situations that made me rethink my 'no tolerance' attitude.
She mentioned that her friend Melanie has a relative in Panama that has to wait 8 years for his application process. And then she recounted a book she had to read for school, 'Enrique's Journey', which tells the story of a Central American boy who tried 12 times to cross the border to join his mother in the U.S., and some of the trials he had to go through were makings for a horror story. I will need to remember to consider there is more than black and white.

[MPREZIV]

News 4 video of a Veteran cutting down the flag at a Wells Ave. shop, where they decided to fly the Mexican flag above the US flag, which is illegal...

http://www.breitbart.tv/?p=6314

[GC8.Love]

Originally Posted by 100_Percent_Juice

Anyone taking advantage of the government and sitting at home having unprotected sex and popping babies out...

Jujajunng. The kids thing always get me.

I also might add that I really don't have any useful contributions to this thread.

My mother now tells me I'm being prejudiced when I try and discuss the stuff going on out here..

"Look, you don't understand... there are a LOT of people that're ending up here without any values (plus more). It's messing shit up..." -examples follow shortly thereafter-

"Hilary.. stop cursing. And you sound so prejudiced."

Personally, I think it's more the younger generations that're losing it, but.. I also see the same thing happening in almost all of the younger generations - race or culture aside.

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by dknv

Ok, after talking about this with Rachel, she told me about a couple of situations that made me rethink my 'no tolerance' attitude.
She mentioned that her friend Melanie has a relative in Panama that has to wait 8 years for his application process. And then she recounted a book she had to read for school, 'Enrique's Journey', which tells the story of a Central American boy who tried 12 times to cross the border to join his mother in the U.S., and some of the trials he had to go through were makings for a horror story. I will need to remember to consider there is more than black and white.

Our administrator has a close friend who is from France. She was here on a student Visa. From the day she graduated (and decided she wanted to stay in the US) it took less than 20 months to have her citizenship. Not green card; citizenship. And it takes Mexican and Central American immigrants over 10 years just to get permission to work.

[wrxkidid]

Originally Posted by MPREZIV

News 4 video of a Veteran cutting down the flag at a Wells Ave. shop, where they decided to fly the Mexican flag above the US flag, which is illegal...

http://www.breitbart.tv/?p=6314

That makes me so mad. I have absolutely no problem with illegals, but stuff like that is uncalled for. I would have tromped all over that flag after I took the American one.

[MPREZIV]

Opinion Question: Is it possible that the difficulties involved with immigrating from South of the Border arise due to "bad blood" related to the number of illegal attempts? Not that it's right, but that there's a bit of animosity left by all of the illegal immigration, that slows things down for those trying to do it right?

OR, that sheer volume is at least a part of the cause? I'd be willing to bet that there's FAR more people trying to come here from Mexico than from France.

Again, just curious what others opinions are on these ideas...

[MPREZIV]

Originally Posted by GC8.Love

...I also might add that I really don't have any useful contributions to this thread...

I love that Hilary's posts come with a disclaimer!

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by MPREZIV

Opinion Question: Is it possible that the difficulties involved with immigrating from South of the Border arise due to "bad blood" related to the number of illegal attempts? Not that it's right, but that there's a bit of animosity left by all of the illegal immigration, that slows things down for those trying to do it right?

OR, that sheer volume is at least a part of the cause? I'd be willing to bet that there's FAR more people trying to come here from Mexico than from France.

Again, just curious what others opinions are on these ideas...

Honestly, I can't find any justification for the tougher process requirements than racism, plain and simple. I can see putting a cap on visa applications, but that doesn't justify the expense and waiting period.

[M3n2c3]

Cory, I'd say it's a bit of both. Racism may or may not be the underlying cause, but the difficulty is definitely set in place to act as a deterrent. Their idea is to keep people from trying, and to ensure that the ones who do try are already financially secure (among other things) and will contribute to society, rather than show up and apply for govt assistance.

I can kinda see their side on this one, though it's a terribly general way to look at it. We already have plenty of homegrown shitheads taking up space. . . there's a good argument there for making sure that we don't invite more in. It's naturally flawed, though - the possession of money and time doesn't necessarily equal good person, just as the lack thereof doesn't equal bad person.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

Honestly, I can't find any justification for the tougher process requirements than racism, plain and simple. I can see putting a cap on visa applications, but that doesn't justify the expense and waiting period.

I would think that volume does have a real-world effect on the wait. If they're allowing say 1000 people per year, and there's 10,000 people that want in... joining the end of the queue means a 10 year wait, no?

[sperry]

Originally Posted by M3n2c3

Cory, I'd say it's a bit of both. Racism may or may not be the underlying cause, but the difficulty is definitely set in place to act as a deterrent. Their idea is to keep people from trying, and to ensure that the ones who do try are already financially secure (among other things) and will contribute to society, rather than show up and apply for govt assistance.

Ironically, it's the unskilled labor from Mexico that is a huge benefit to the nation. While the practice of putting illegals "in the fields" is morally suspect, underpaid migrant workers make farming affordable and usually increases the quality of life for the worker and their families.

As long as you can get by the "but it's illegal" and the "they terk ur jerbs!" issues, it's actually a win-win situation. Which is why I'd like to see a migrant worker program to make the current illegal system legal and make sure that those migrant workers are afforded the basic rights that all people should have.

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by sperry

I would think that volume does have a real-world effect on the wait. If they're allowing say 1000 people per year, and there's 10,000 people that want in... joining the end of the queue means a 10 year wait, no?

But racism (or derivatives of it) are why the caps are too low in the first place. Not to mention it costs significantly more for central americans than for europeans or asians.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

But racism (or derivatives of it) are why the caps are too low in the first place. Not to mention it costs significantly more for central americans than for europeans or asians.

I don't buy that racism is the driving factor. It's a matter of supply/demand. There's a huge supply of people that want in, and under our current rules, not enough demand for what they provide. So just like items for sale, the cost of entry goes up 'cause there's more than enough people willing to pay the higher price.

IMO, racism is what prevents putting together a proper migrant worker program.

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by sperry

I don't buy that racism is the driving factor. It's a matter of supply/demand. There's a huge supply of people that want in, and under our current rules, not enough demand for what they provide. So just like items for sale, the cost of entry goes up 'cause there's more than enough people willing to pay the higher price.

I disagree.

Originally Posted by sperry

IMO, racism is what prevents putting together a proper migrant worker program.

I agree, and they are two distinct issues.

[NevadaSTi]

Here is an interesting side note, a little off topic. California has a very large Migrant worker program. The different counties spend tons of money providing them with basic housing. I know first hand, the Architecutral Firm I worked has done, at least while I was there, no less than 4 different appartment complexes for Migrant Workers. In a sence, making them non-migrant workers. The goal was to provide them with affordable housing, i.e. less than $200 a month for the smaller units.

List of Agencies we did work for while in Modesto.

Madera Housing Authority.
Stanislas H.A.
Merced H.A.
San Joaquin H.A.

I did all the plans for the Madera H.A. appartments. It consisted of three different sites ranging from 60 units to over 100 units at the biggest site. The California Tax payers got to pay for these projects.

[M3n2c3]

^That's cool.

[MPREZIV]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

Honestly, I can't find any justification for the tougher process requirements than racism, plain and simple. I can see putting a cap on visa applications, but that doesn't justify the expense and waiting period.

I kinda say yes and no... I don't think it's outward racism. In my opinion, if our country bordered any other, the situation would probably be the same, despite the fact that they would not be Mexican.

[JonnydaJibba]

Originally Posted by MPREZIV

I kinda say yes and no... I don't think it's outward racism. In my opinion, if our country bordered any other, the situation would probably be the same, despite the fact that they would not be Mexican.

I agree.

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by MPREZIV

I kinda say yes and no... I don't think it's outward racism. In my opinion, if our country bordered any other, the situation would probably be the same, despite the fact that they would not be Mexican.

You're right, it's very different from the kind of racism exhibited during the Civil Rights movement and prior. It's much more latent, and has more to do with the perception of illegals asdirt poor, trashy, uneducated and ignorant masses... which is often true, but our policies do nothing to improve those conditions, and since when is class or wealth or education supposed to entitle you to more opportunity than others in this country?

[sperry]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

You're right, it's very different from the kind of racism exhibited during the Civil Rights movement and prior. It's much more latent, and has more to do with the perception of illegals asdirt poor, trashy, uneducated and ignorant masses... which is often true, but our policies do nothing to improve those conditions, and since when is class or wealth or education supposed to entitle you to more opportunity than others in this country?

Class, wealth, or formal education have never been a requirement for the "American Dream". In fact just the opposite. The allure of America has been that *anyone* willing to work hard can make a good life for themselves regardless of their background, education, wealth, etc. The problem with America today is that people forget the "hard work" part of the deal, and entitlement is the name of the game these days.

But that doesn't mean our immigration policies don't reflect the original intent of America... which means we try to keep out the lazy people looking for handouts, and I guess the way we check for that is to let the skilled people in and deny the unskilled people... which is kinda what got us into this mess with Mexico, because we really need the unskilled, but hard-working folks that are willing to work for cheap that we're trying so hard to keep out.

[MPREZIV]

Well put Kev. It's clearly discrimination, just not racism specifically, definitively speaking... The animosity toward people of the area that have broken the law, and the stereotypes associated with their culture, true or not, are what causes some of these problems, IMO.

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by sperry

Class, wealth, or formal education have never been a requirement for the "American Dream". In fact just the opposite. The allure of America has been that *anyone* willing to work hard can make a good life for themselves regardless of their background, education, wealth, etc. The problem with America today is that people forget the "hard work" part of the deal, and entitlement is the name of the game these days.

But that doesn't mean our immigration policies don't reflect the original intent of America... which means we try to keep out the lazy people looking for handouts, and I guess the way we check for that is to let the skilled people in and deny the unskilled people... which is kinda what got us into this mess with Mexico, because we really need the unskilled, but hard-working folks that are willing to work for cheap that we're trying so hard to keep out.

The nice thing about making it easy to come in above-board is that we can deny citizenship and/or decline to renew whatever you want to call the guest/migrant worker program to those who don't act like being here is a privelege (you know, like a healthy minority of the people we can't kick out). And when thos epeople sneak back in, I wouldn't feel guilty about prosecuting and deporting them because they had a fair chance and screwed it up, unlike the current system.

[100_Percent_Juice]

Form a huge bridge from Mexico to Canada.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by 100_Percent_Juice

Form a huge bridge from Mexico to Canada.

Or just have a free train that runs from Tijuana to Vancouver.