94mpg Prius?

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by sperry

So...

PE in the form of gasoline in the fuel tank, converted to PE in the form of a charged chemical battery (at a loss), converted to KE (at a loss), partially recovered to PE in the battery

is somehow significantly different from

PE in the form of gasoline/natural gas/nuclear fuel at the power station, converted to PE in the form of a charged chemical battery (at a loss), converted to KE (at a loss), partially recovered to PE in the battery?

Looks like the same damn thing to me, except electric cars don't have to carry the power station around with them everywhere they go. It's not like regenerative braking can't be used on pure electric cars. Hybrids are basically electric cars that can run on the existing gasoline infrastructure, at a loss in effeciency due to less effective fuel to battery power conversion as well as the added weight of the combustion motor.

Americans won't forego the "convenience" of 15mpg SUVs, and you expect them to convert to cars that take ~8 hours to fill up the "gas tank?" Not gonna happen. Unless incredible leaps of technology are made, purely electric vehicles will never see major use as household transportation, only specialty functions like meter maid carts and maybe certain parts of public transit.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

Not quite. You can partially charge a full-electric car usign regenerative braking, but when those batteries get low/empty how do you keep going up a hill so you can recharge coming down the other side? Unless/until battery technology gets to the point that you can fully recharge your car's system in the time it takes to, say, finish your grocery shopping, it'll lose out to mproved hybrid technology. 125 mile cruising range FTL.

Boy that's a stretch.

Let's do this: one hybrid car w/ next generation battery technology vs. one pure electric w/ next generation battery technology.

Assume both cars are exactly the same in weight, performance, etc. One just has a small gas motor and fuel tank, the other has the weight of the motor/fuel in extra batteries.

Because the pure electric is charged by a power plant that's way more efficient than the hybrid's motor, when fully charged, it already has made more efficient use of the original chemical energy. Coupled with the larger overall battery capacity, now the pure electric drives over your stratigically placed hill and on for another 40 miles while the hybrid runs out of gas climbing the hill.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

Americans won't forego the "convenience" of 15mpg SUVs, and you expect them to convert to cars that take ~8 hours to fill up the "gas tank?" Not gonna happen. Unless incredible leaps of technology are made, purely electric vehicles will never see major use as household transportation, only specialty functions like meter maid carts and maybe certain parts of public transit.

The next generation Li-ion batteries for cell phones can charge to 90% in 30 seconds, IIRC. Charging a car completely in <20 minutes isn't an outlandish proposal, and in 10 years there's no reason why we couldn't theoretically have cars that charge +20% just by driving under a "power bar" that spans the road.

[Dean]

I've posted this before... http://www.acpropulsion.com/tzero_pa..._html_home.htm

Get rid of teh PbH2SO4 batteries and replace with Li-ion technology that has twice or more capacity for the same weight...

I'd buy one... And did I mention it recharges in about an hour... Hmm. sounds like enough time to go grocery shopping...

And this car has been around for 5+ years I think. Imagine what could be done with modern composites...

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by sperry

The next generation Li-ion batteries for cell phones can charge to 90% in 30 seconds, IIRC. Charging a car completely in <20 minutes isn't an outlandish proposal, and in 10 years there's no reason why we couldn't theoretically have cars that charge +20% just by driving under a "power bar" that spans the road.

If that's the case, then there's hope for us yet. I'd still be much more leary of being stranded by a discharged battery than by an empty tank of gas, but there would be far more plausible applications for 100% battery power than I believed possible.

And, uh, power bar?

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by Dean

I've posted this before... http://www.acpropulsion.com/tzero_pa..._html_home.htm

Get rid of teh PbH2SO4 batteries and replace with Li-ion technology that has twice or more capacity for the same weight...

I'd buy one... And did I mention it recharges in about an hour... Hmm. sounds like enough time to go grocery shopping...

And this car has been around for 5+ years I think. Imagine what could be done with modern composites...

Potential, yes, but far from mrket-ready. My Miata destroys that vehicle in terms of practicality, and I wouldn't dream of not owning a second vehicle with it. (At least not for long; the van might be sold today and it might be a month or 3 before I get my dad's truck...) Let's see a minivan-sized version and I'll hop up there on that bandwagon too.

[Dean]

And if you are terified of running out of "eGas", carry a small generator, or I'm sure the tow trucks can top you off enough to get you to the next charging station...

Or somebody can give you some of their charge... Just need some fancy jumper cables.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Dean

And if you are terified of running out of "eGas", carry a small generator, or I'm sure the tow trucks can top you off enough to get you to the next charging station...

Or somebody can give you some of their charge... Just need some fancy jumper cables.

Naw, just break out the exercise bike and cables from the trunk and charge up on leg power.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

Potential, yes, but far from mrket-ready. My Miata destroys that vehicle in terms of practicality, and I wouldn't dream of not owning a second vehicle with it. (At least not for long; the van might be sold today and it might be a month or 3 before I get my dad's truck...) Let's see a minivan-sized version and I'll hop up there on that bandwagon too.

Chrysler has been making them since '98 with Lead Acid...

http://www.evworld.com/archives/testdrives/epic.html

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by Dean

Chrysler has been making them since '98 with Lead Acid...

http://www.evworld.com/archives/testdrives/epic.html

0-60 in 17 seconds, 96 mile range all while empty. Get it down to ~12 seconds at near full GVWR and still make 200 miles and you have a winner. The 4-5 hour charge time isn't bad though

[Dean]

Ford was making EV Rangers until the oil companies effectively forced CA to change it's laws... Electric vehicles work and oil campanies will spend more fewer billions for you not to learn/know that.

http://jumpstartford.com/about_the_c..._pickup_truck/

[Kevin M]

Yes, CARB made a brilliant move, as usual, with the EV mandate. That law got altered/repealed because it sucked; Ford lost their ass on that vehicle, and Toyota didn't do so swell with their EV RAV-4 either. Hell, hybrids are only now beginning to turn a profit after losing billions over the last decade of development.

Don't be like the pro-gun types and screw up a good position with bad arguments.

[Kevin M]

Random thought: why doesn't one the major oil companies just invest a paltry $20-30billion in an alternative energy infrastructure for the US? They still get to find ways to assrape us for our transportation costs, yet look like heroes for improve the environment...

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

Americans won't forego the "convenience" of 15mpg SUVs, and you expect them to convert to cars that take ~8 hours to fill up the "gas tank?" Not gonna happen. Unless incredible leaps of technology are made, purely electric vehicles will never see major use as household transportation, only specialty functions like meter maid carts and maybe certain parts of public transit.

Did I mention the marketplace yet? Supply and demand, anyone? When gas is $5+/gallon and people are paying hundreds of dollars/month just for their commute, and they're having trouble making ends meet, Americans will do whatever they have to. Don't think that just because we're Americans we won't behave in certain ways. People here have driven gas-guzzling SUV's and not cared about fuel efficiency so far because it was affordable to do so; when it becomes non-affordable, they won't do it anymore. It's that simple. If purely electric vehicles happened to fill a need at the right price point, people would use them (until something better was developed).

[Kevin M]

$5/gallon gas isn't doing much to create a market for electric vehicles in Europe. I wouldn't call it impossible, but I'd see a lot of steps (like improving mass transit) in the US before consumers as a whole adopt electric vehicles as the primary option.

[Kevin M]

Besides, if consumers actually *did* make moves away from dependence on gasoline, watch prices start tumbling. Prices will be high enough to make us bitch, but not high enough to make us stop using gas until something drastic happens. Like, say, a breakthrough in cold fusion.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

$5/gallon gas isn't doing much to create a market for electric vehicles in Europe. I wouldn't call it impossible, but I'd see a lot of steps (like improving mass transit) in the US before consumers as a whole adopt electric vehicles as the primary option.

Sure, because fuel has always been expensive. If the gas in europe went from $5/gal to $15/gal in a year, you bet there'd be an effect. Just like we'll have issues when the <$3/gal were used to is suddenly in the $6 to $9 range. Fuel can be expensive, as long as there's room in the budget for it. Right now, many people are pushing it to afford $3/gal... when it hits $5, the economy will start to feel it as people stop spending on non-necessities like entertainment, and at $10/gal our oil based infrastructure will probably collapse as on one will be able to afford to ship goods.

Just look at the sales of SUVs lately, and the massive instant depreciation of trucks/SUVs. A brand new $30,000 Nissan Titan is worth about $24,000 the second you drive it off the lot. People just aren't buying SUVs/trucks like they were 5 years ago, unless of course you're trying to impress your neighbors by spending money on a uselessly expensive wasteful POS.

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by sperry

People just aren't buying SUVs/trucks like they were 5 years ago, unless of course you're trying to impress your neighbors by spending money on a uselessly expensive wasteful POS.

Praise Jeebus!

[AtomicLabMonkey]

It doesn't even take sharp, quick rises in price; people will reduce their consumption of gas and cheaper alternatives will be developed naturally as prices edge higher and higher. Market-driven shifts like that happen over years and decades. I've read some pretty apocalyptic stuff about what is going to happen when we someday suddenly run out of oil, and I don't believe it, at all. All those writers pretty much ignore the laws of economics.

[JC]

Originally Posted by AtomicLabMonkey

It doesn't even take sharp, quick rises in price; people will reduce their consumption of gas and cheaper alternatives will be developed naturally as prices edge higher and higher. Market-driven shifts like that happen over years and decades. I've read some pretty apocalyptic stuff about what is going to happen when we someday suddenly run out of oil, and I don't believe it, at all. All those writers pretty much ignore the laws of economics.

Exactly. Eventually the electric motors will get better and better on hybrids. Home charging will probably start being an option in a few years, so more people will start moving to solar on their homes. In 10 years I think 100 mpg cars will be common place. Then you will start seeing small gas motors that assist a primary electric motors. Then eventually someone will come out with a full electric car probably with a solar roof to recharge the car with a home charging option. None of this is really far fetched, we are just at the being of a drastic change in cars IMO.

[dknv]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

..Unless incredible leaps of technology are made, purely electric vehicles will never see major use as household transportation, only specialty functions like meter maid carts and maybe certain parts of public transit.

And student-mobiles. I could see getting one for my son or daughter to drive to school & back.

I rented an electric car in San Francisco back in November. Funny thing, we were on the road about 30 minutes (supposedly they run for 2 hours) when I looked down & noticed the charge indicator was showing the battery was down to 30%. I freaked out a little. Turns out I had left one of the turn signals on, which was draining the battery. After a stop at Starbucks, I started it up and the battery indicator showed it was back to 2/3 charge. I realized then, the 'remaining fuel' indicator was just as bad as it is in some cars, maybe worse.