The six stroke engine ... it's two strokes better!

[MikeK]

Article

The article doesn't have a lot of technical details, but it seems the extra 2 strokes are used to inject water, which instantly turns to steam, which powers the last stroke and provides the cooling (the engine has no radiator).

[Dean]

So instead of a 2 gallon 20 lb. radiator sytem, I need to carry around 15 gallons of distilled water at 8.33lbs. and $1 or so/Gal.

Makes sense to me.

[Kevin M]

If it works like it's theoretically supposed to, you'd be carrying less fuel. The weight savings factor is basically nil, but if he can make gasoline engines more efficient than diesel engines, he might be on to something.

[A1337STI]

Wow very impressive. i'de rather have the sports car the HS kids made. but still

[Pat R.]

I'm working on an eight stroke engine that involves the same concept plus Taco Bell and a one-way valve in the driver's seat. Emission issues are holding me up so I'm thinking of switching to Baja Fresh.

[Kevin M]

Watch those backfires Pat...

[cody]

More Strokes=More Gooder

[Kevin M]

That's what she said! Only without the engrish.

[M3n2c3]

You guys make me raff [/engrish]

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Dean

So instead of a 2 gallon 20 lb. radiator sytem, I need to carry around 15 gallons of distilled water at 8.33lbs. and $1 or so/Gal.

Makes sense to me.

Yeah Dean, it would really suck to get 60 mpg, an extra 40 hp, and better cooling w/o a radiator, all for having to fill up 2/3 gas 1/3 water, especially since water costs 1/3rd the price of gas.

BTW, BWM already has a working prototype of a water/steam system, though I don't know if it uses the 6-stroke concept.

[MPREZIV]

just more shit to go wrong as far as I'm concerned. every time "they" come up with some great new invention to revolutionise the automotive world, I get screwed somehow! (see: Nissan CVT)

[Dean]

Originally Posted by sperry

Yeah Dean, it would really suck to get 60 mpg, an extra 40 hp, and better cooling w/o a radiator, all for having to fill up 2/3 gas 1/3 water, especially since water costs 1/3rd the price of gas.

BTW, BWM already has a working prototype of a water/steam system, though I don't know if it uses the 6-stroke concept.

I'll beleive it when I see it. water is not magic. it will need a delivery system, it's own tank and it weighs more than gas, etc. And who says it is cheaper than gas? You show me a nationwide distilled water distribution system in the quntities that we are talking about that delivers it at thousands of stations accross the counntry for less than gas, and I'll believe it.

I hope it is the answer to all our problems, but I'm not convinced. High pressure water vapor/steam if you prefer is going to squeeze through the smallest spaces in piston rings, scrub the lubrication from the cylinder walls, etc. Sounds like a bad recipe for a engine making any kind of torque.

And don't forget you have to stop the engine at some point. what happens to the cylinder that is full of unexhausted water vapor? can you say oxidation? Maybe we will have stainless or ceramic blocks.

And notice he hasn't managed to get it on a dyno, but is sure it makes more power...

Hope I'm wrong, but my pesimistic side is winning this one, and I say the glass is 3/4s empty.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Dean

I'll beleive it when I see it. water is not magic. it will need a delivery system,

Existing technology. www.aquamist.co.uk, or just use the same stuff that's used for fuel delivery in a parallel circuit.

Originally Posted by Dean

it's own tank and it weighs more than gas, etc.

Trade a 15 gallon fuel tank for a 10 gallon fuel tank + a 5 gallon water tank. Same space, only a little more weight. If you really think the extra 12 lbs the system weighs when topped actually makes a real-world difference...

Originally Posted by Dean

And who says it is cheaper than gas? You show me a nationwide distilled water distribution system in the quntities that we are talking about that delivers it at thousands of stations accross the counntry for less than gas, and I'll believe it.

Distilled water costs $0.66/gal at Walmart. Also, IIRC, the BMW system is nearly a closed system that reuses the water, so you rarely have to top off the system.

Originally Posted by Dean

I hope it is the answer to all our problems, but I'm not convinced. High pressure water vapor/steam if you prefer is going to squeeze through the smallest spaces in piston rings, scrub the lubrication from the cylinder walls, etc. Sounds like a bad recipe for a engine making any kind of torque.

And don't forget you have to stop the engine at some point. what happens to the cylinder that is full of unexhausted water vapor? can you say oxidation? Maybe we will have stainless or ceramic blocks.

An engine block is exposed to more water just due to normal humidity that it is when you add water injection to the mix. I'm pretty sure it would be fine. Hell, cast-iron steam trains didn't rust out in 20 minutes. A modern engine designed for the water cycle would be no different than a current motor that has to deal w/ condensation and the like already. In fact, I'll bet a water-stroke motor would run cleaner due to the constant steam cleaning it gets.

Originally Posted by Dean

And notice he hasn't managed to get it on a dyno, but is sure it makes more power...

Hope I'm wrong, but my pesimistic side is winning this one, and I say the glass is 3/4s empty.

He didn't say it makes more power, he said it makes the same power with less gas... which is the whole point. I said it makes more power, because the next step (since you've already got a water delivery system in place) is to add water injection to the gasoline power stroke and make more power.

Do I expect this to revolutionize the automobile industry? Nope. But I recognize that we're entering a new era of car design where we're going to see alternatives to the normal gasoline motor. Hybrids, E85, diesel, water-stroke, pure electric, hydrogen, etc... people are finally going to have choices. And as the kinks are worked out on smaller production cars, we'll start to see these technologies in large scale vehicles.

[A1337STI]

also if you count the weight reduction for no radiator , and the radiator coolent , it should equal out or save you more weight over all. ESP in those big rig examples. taking out a 1200 lb radiator. so he could carry 600 lbs of water and still be saving weight. the weight is definatly a moot point.

you can also distill your own water its not that hard. (i belive all you do it let it settle and drain most of a tank out slowly , and not from the very bottom) could be wrong on that, but i'm sure its easy enough.

Wonder if this old guy could work with the HS kids that made the soy bean biodesiel car . could combine everything and come out with around 100 miles to the gallon (of desiel) . Now that would be Sick!

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by Dean

High pressure water vapor/steam if you prefer is going to squeeze through the smallest spaces in piston rings, scrub the lubrication from the cylinder walls, etc.

And combustion gases don't? IIRC typical cylinder pressures are in the thousands of psi, any fluid at those kinds of pressures is going to squeeze through any gaps.

[A1337STI]

ya isn't there less resitance to push the piston , then for the air to just escape out the rings? If not wouldn't every engine leak lots of air and end up not running?

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by sperry

An engine block is exposed to more water just due to normal humidity that it is when you add water injection to the mix. I'm pretty sure it would be fine. Hell, cast-iron steam trains didn't rust out in 20 minutes. A modern engine designed for the water cycle would be no different than a current motor that has to deal w/ condensation and the like already. In fact, I'll bet a water-stroke motor would run cleaner due to the constant steam cleaning it gets.

Given that roughly half of the the combustion byproduct is water, I'm sure it'll be fine.

Edit: way late.

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by A1337STI

you can also distill your own water its not that hard. (i belive all you do it let it settle and drain most of a tank out slowly , and not from the very bottom) could be wrong on that, but i'm sure its easy enough.

No, you filter it (optional) then boil it off and capture the steam.

[Dean]

5Gal + 10Gal <> "Preliminary estimates suggest a Crower cycle engine will use roughly as many gallons of water as fuel."

12HP under no load <> 300HP under 300ft/lb load

Steam engine <> internal combustion oil sump engine.

Combustion cycle water injection or humidity <> injected water, and high pressure steam

Walmart 1 gal. jug <> 100 or so Billion gallons of distilled water, and the infrastructure to create and deliver it.(Based on 170+ Billion gallon gasoline consumption in the US alone)

All I'm saying "SHOW ME THE MONEY!"

That is all.

[Dean]

And where does the energy to make distilled water come from? Magic fairy dust?

[cody]

Removing particulate matter from water has to be easier than digging up oil half way across the earth and turning it into gas. Distilled water would be hella cheap if demand rose.

[M3n2c3]

Originally Posted by Dean

And where does the energy to make distilled water come from? Magic fairy dust?

No, it's like Santa Claus' sleigh. It comes from the hopes and dreams of little children.

We need to work on getting actual clean water lines to residences before we start worrying about piping distilled water to gas stations. I swear, I turn on a tap in this state and it looks like coconut Kool-aid or somthing.

[MattR]

Originally Posted by Pat R.

I'm working on an eight stroke engine that involves the same concept plus Taco Bell and a one-way valve in the driver's seat. Emission issues are holding me up so I'm thinking of switching to Baja Fresh.

El Rosal Taqueria FTW! I know the owner, maybe we can get you a sponsor!

[MattR]

Seriously though, I'm fascinated by the number of alternative fuel, hybrid and new ideas that have been surfacing of late. Maybe the fuel companies will finally cut some slack.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by cody

Removing particulate matter from water has to be easier than digging up oil half way across the earth and turning it into gas. Distilled water would be hella cheap if demand rose.

How? Every type of good water filtration or distillation requires energy in the form of pressure, heat, or electricity.

It's like the whole hydrogen powered car theory. Where does all the hydrogen come from? Electrolysis. And the power for the electrolysis comes from where? Coal or petroleum fired power plants. Doh...

Yes, there are solar powered methods of water seperation, but last I knew, were not scalable to the levels required for a hydrogen based economy.